No Chill Cube

[Yob]

Gumboots do a pretty hooting job as well as a heat barrier.

Not sure about potato protection

 

[Black Devil Dog]

Someone posted recently that they use two strips of timber, one each side of the cube, connected with a bolt each end and then by tightening the nuts, (wingnuts?) this squeezes the air out and then put the cap on the cube. No burnt legs.

 

[bum]

Looked slow and cumbersome too.

 

[Matt Browne]

Hi guys,
Can you store partial mashed brews that have not had the concentrate tin boiled unrefridgerated for future fermenting?
If so for how long could you keep them?
Cheers Matt

 

[jyo]

If you intend to boil the partial first and then transfer to a small 'cube' using the same method as for no-chill, then it should be fine.

Is this what you mean, mate?

 

[Matt Browne]

Sorry what I meant was, if you dissolve a concentrated tin eg Coopers Pale Ale green tin with a boiled partial mix, is this ok to store the total mix unrefridgerated for some time until you want to ferment it given that the concentrate tin has not been actually boiled, only dissolved.

 

[jyo]

As long as the goop has been at pasteurisation temps for long enough once disolved into the partial, you would think it would be ok. They are pasteurised anyway during the canning process.
I'd be more inclined to leave the tin out of the partial boil and add it to the fermenter when you are ready to open your cube. Boiling cans of hopped extract will also increase your bitterness.

 

[real_beer]

I don't know if this has been covered already on another thread, but on this edition of BBR (starts around 23 minute mark): http://traffic.libsyn.com/basicbrewing/bbr05-01-14chriswhite.mp3 Colby from 'Brew Your Own Magazine' raises alarm bells about cubed wort having the potential to be a serious, .................................... even DEADLY, health risk from dangerous botulism.

As I've recently just started to try this method, I'm now very interested in what other think of his claims? Apparently canned wort & other food products are heated to very high temperatures home brewers don't reach to combat this threat. The show also raised concerns about Cubed beers being a possible health risk to judges and others in Beer Competitions, as well as running the risk of flighty politicians and Senators calling for the hobby to be banned. Only in America . It seems everyone wants a guarantee that everything they do in life from picking one's nose to having a root is going to be 100% safe or someone's going to cop a lawsuit! Oh well.
I know there is the possibility of things like this cropping up from time to time, but I sometimes wonder if the initial resistance to some of these new ideas coming out of Australia such as BIAB, & No Chill Cubing, is because they don't originate in the good old US of A.

 

[JDW81]

I don't know if this has been covered already on another thread, but on this edition of BBR Colby from 'Brew Your Own Magazine' raises alarm bells about cubed wort having the potential to be a serious, .................................... even DEADLY, health risk from dangerous botulism.

Darren, is that you?

Yes it has been extensively and hysterically covered in another thread.

Do you think the risk of cubing wort is more dangerous than the risk alcohol poses over a lifetime of consumption? I'd wager it isn't.

How long have people been using the no chill method? Have there been any reports of deaths from drinking HB made from cubed wort?

I'll stick to no chill and leave the theoretical risk for the naysayers to debate.

If I die, you can say I told you so.

JD

 

[manticle]

I don't know if this has been covered already on another thread, but on this edition of BBR (starts around 23 minute mark): http://traffic.libsyn.com/basicbrewing/bbr05-01-14chriswhite.mp3 Colby from 'Brew Your Own Magazine' raises alarm bells about cubed wort having the potential to be a serious, .................................... even DEADLY, health risk from dangerous botulism.

As I've recently just started to try this method, I'm now very interested in what other think of his claims? Apparently canned wort & other food products are heated to very high temperatures home brewers don't reach to combat this threat. The show also raised concerns about Cubed beers being a possible health risk to judges and others in Beer Competitions, as well as running the risk of flighty politicians and Senators calling for the hobby to be banned. Only in America . It seems everyone wants a guarantee that everything they do in life from picking one's nose to having a root is going to be 100% safe or someone's going to cop a lawsuit! Oh well.
I know there is the possibility of things like this cropping up from time to time, but I sometimes wonder if the initial resistance to some of these new ideas coming out of Australia such as BIAB, & No Chill Cubing, is because they don't originate in the good old US of A.

There was much banter about this a long time ago. I have not heard of one single incidence of botulism poisoning, whether in comps or at home.

Hysterical hypotheising as far as I can see.

 

[real_beer]

I think because Chris Colby is outputting so much information these days he's searching for new topics to come up with and he's latched on to this one. The sad part is that the damage has probably now been done and lots of brewers will steer away from trying the cube because of it. I like the idea myself because one weekend can be set aside every x weeks to brew multiple batches for building up stocks that can later be fermented at leisure when required. I've only done two cubes so far, the first one was about 6 months ago, and the second last weekend, and even though I know they'll be okay the show still makes an impact at the back of the mind, and that's why I think many other newer brewers won't now try it.

If I was Darren I would now be saying 'Chris Colby .................. Shame ........ shame .............shame!'

 

[Yob]

Needless to say, any cube that swells prior to being opened should be discarded...

 

[manticle]

If it puts your mind at ease realbeer, all commercially available Fresh wort kits are made this way.
Just make sure the cube is clean and well sanitised and the wort is run into it hot (takes a while to cool - even after 20 minute stand and 20 minute whirlpool, mine goes in at 80 deg. C).

Hops, heat and pH all combine to make no chill a very safe method of storing wort until pitching time.

 

[manticle]

Needless to say, any cube that swells prior to being opened should be discarded...

Agreed - any swollen cubes I've experienced (whether mine or someone else's) have smelled so bad, I have no idea why anyone would want to ferment one out and see what might happen.

My partner found 2 eggs that floated today. They'd been stinking the fridge out. I didn't cook them up in my omelette to see if some fluke might make them taste amazing, I threw them in the bin and cooked some fresh ones.

 

[stux]

In the end, weren't some papers found that posited that hops+alcohol was an effective anti botulism protocol, and thus as long as you ferment the wort before consuming it, you're okay?

 

[real_beer]

In the end, weren't some papers found that posited that hops+alcohol was an effective anti botulism protocol, and thus as long as you ferment the wort before consuming it, you're okay?

In the BBR Show Chris Colby stated that:
a). Botulism can be present at minute levels that wont make a cube swell, and being anaerobic it doesn't need air to breed.
b). If you don't ferment the wort straight away, by the next day at least, and botulism gets a hold alcohol wont destroy it when you ferment it later.
c). The only way to then destroy the botulism is by boiling your wort at 250 Celsius, or 240 Celsius for 20 minutes.

I was surprised hops weren't even mentioned during the whole discussion. I'm still going to No Chill Cube but I bet a lot of people who listened to the show won't.

I don't think it's worth wasting anymore time on this show so I wont mention it again :lol:, I promise!

 

[manticle]

I would just be interested for someone to cite one single confirmed case of botulism poisoning from no-chill cubing or even detect some spores present in properly no-chilled wort. If it was a possibility worth considering, I would have an assumption that it would have occurred at least once, considering the number of no chills that have happened.

Otherwise it's irresponsible scaremongering (not on your part - people like Colby).

 

[Dunkelbrau]

In the BBR Show Chris Colby stated that:
a). Botulism can be present at minute levels that wont make a cube swell, and being anaerobic it doesn't need air to breed.
b). If you don't ferment the wort straight away, by the next day at least, and botulism gets a hold alcohol wont destroy it when you ferment it later.
c). The only way to then destroy the botulism is by boiling your wort at 250 Celsius, or 240 Celsius for 20 minutes.

I was surprised hops weren't even mentioned during the whole discussion. I'm still going to No Chill Cube but I bet a lot of people who listened to the show won't.

I don't think it's worth wasting anymore time on this show so I wont mention it again :lol:, I promise!

I don't know where that temp info came from but the general consensus in scientific documentation is 85 degrees for 20 minutes is going to remove the threat - that's why cooking cured meats is able to make them safe, otherwise food would be burnt to a crisp.

It's good to see that people making claims on these shows still don't do any research and pull numbers from their ass.

 

[Dunkelbrau]

In the end, weren't some papers found that posited that hops+alcohol was an effective anti botulism protocol, and thus as long as you ferment the wort before consuming it, you're okay?

Mar 15, 2001 - S.S. Steiner, Inc.
The present invention relates to the discovery that hop extract is useful as an antibacterial agent against the dangerous pathogens Clostridium botulinum, Clostridium difficile, and Helicobacter pylori at levels below that at which a flavor from the acids contained therein is objectionable. More specifically, a process and associated product is described herein, comprising applying a solution of hop extract to a food, beverage or other medium so that the final concentration of hop ingredients is about 1 ppm or higher in order to inhibit the growth of Clostridium botulinum, Clostridium difficile, and/or Helicobacter pylori.

Found this with a quick search

 

[JDW81]

In the BBR Show Chris Colby stated that:
a). Botulism can be present at minute levels that wont make a cube swell, and being anaerobic it doesn't need air to breed.
B). If you don't ferment the wort straight away, by the next day at least, and botulism gets a hold alcohol wont destroy it when you ferment it later.
c). The only way to then destroy the botulism is by boiling your wort at 250 Celsius, or 240 Celsius for 20 minutes.

And tony abbot stated there would be no new taxes, cuts to the ABC, SBS, health or education……

I'm with manticle, unless someone can present actual evidence that this is a problem (sited from a reputable, scientific source or from a documented case of botulism from no chill) then to me it is just ill informed fear mongering.

Goes in the same basket as those who say no chill won't work due to the DMS risk.