Max Beer Temp For Gelatine Addition

[felten]

http://www.gelatin.co.za/fining.htm

I found this article interesting, but couldn't decipher anything in regards to denaturing from it.

 

[MeLoveBeer]

Interestingly Screwy says that he heats gelatine up to 85 degrees before using it (see the post here)

Surely boiling the solution must be the catalyst for denaturing it?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Thanks for your well measured input Thirsty (always educational). The gelatine article (that I followed to the letter) recommends holding the gelatine solution at 75 degrees for 15 minutes, so we're going to find out...

How many days do you think it'll take for the gelatine to do its thing? If CC'ing my brew is going to do bugger all, then I'm keen to keg it asap (have a new kegerator and the pilsner is going to be my first beer on tap).

I'd give it a week. 3 days might be enough.. Won't really matter all that much, you bung it in the keg and the finings will continue to work if there is any more yeast to fall out. It will just settle to the bottom of the keg, one glass of slightly cloudy beer and then you are gold either way.

I'm not saying to skip the cc step to save time... Just that as a cold conditioning phase, one week isn't long enough to do what cold conditioning does... And as a period of time to let the gelatin work, then it doesn't have to be cold.

CCing your brew will do it some good, but you want it as cold as you can get it, and you want to give it multiple weeks for stuff to precipitate out of solution and settle... Then rack to serving vessel. Or just skip all that malarkey, give it a week at the most convenient for your set-up temperature so the gelatin can do it's thing... Then rack to serving vessel.

Or just put the gelatin in the keg and hold off starting to drink it as long as you have the willpower By the time it's carbonated, the gelatin will have had more than enough time anyway.

If I were making a lager and choosing to fine instead of filter... What I would do is

*Long cool primary till it was well and truly done and has cleared. Taste for diacteyl etc and leave it till there isn't any.
*Crash cool for a few days because I can and its easy, but if it wasn't i'd skip it without care.
*Rack directly from primary into keg onto of some gelatin, attach gas and walk away for 2 or 3 weeks
*tap keg, chuck out the first glass or so till it runs clear. Drink the rest.

But that's only one way to do it, suits my set-up, gives great clear results - but pretty much any of the common ways to handle this stuff all work... It's just a matter of what works for you, that you can do consistently and that isn't too much trouble.

TB

 

[thanme]

This is interesting. I'm in the process of moving house and don't have space for my CC fridge, so I was going to run around and find something smaller I could use, but given what I've read here, I might have a crack without it.
My usual process is; primary for 3 weeks, rack to secondary, CC fridge for a day or 2, add gelatine, keg after another few days.

So if I change that to something like;
primary for 3 weeks, rack to secondary, gelatine after racking, keg after a week

I should be laughing right? I guess any "benefits" of CC'ing, I'd still get while in the keg fridge?

 

[MeLoveBeer]

Thanks guys, I'll give it the week at 0 degrees and then keg it...

Should have my new fermenting fridge ready to go for the next one, then can do it properly.

 

[basement_brewer]

Thanks for the info Thirsty Boy.

My beers taste and smell the best (brightest) after using Koppafloc during the boil the whirlpooling, and following primary fermentation being in the keg for three months at about 3C. But thats a long time to wait!

After reading your post I understand that that is because not only has the yeast dropped out of suspension, but the chill haze (cold break) has also precipitated and dropped to the bottom as well.

So, if I want to remove both the yeast and cold break without using a filter, then I should cold condition at about 1C to encourage the yeast to drop, and add PolyclarVT to the conditioning brew for 3-4 days to help the cold break precipitate and drop, then rack to serving keg.

Basement

 

[flano]

my 2cents.

I did a pilsener.
Put 1 teaspoon of gelatine in one cup of boiling water stirred it up.

added to fermenter ...no racking what so ever. waited for 3 days and kegged it.

half way through keg and it is clear as.



12-14 dgrs when I added the gellatine...feremented for about 16 days prior.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Thanks for the info Thirsty Boy.

My beers taste and smell the best (brightest) after using Koppafloc during the boil the whirlpooling, and following primary fermentation being in the keg for three months at about 3C. But thats a long time to wait!

After reading your post I understand that that is because not only has the yeast dropped out of suspension, but the chill haze (cold break) has also precipitated and dropped to the bottom as well.

So, if I want to remove both the yeast and cold break without using a filter, then I should cold condition at about 1C to encourage the yeast to drop, and add PolyclarVT to the conditioning brew for 3-4 days to help the cold break precipitate and drop, then rack to serving keg.

Basement

Ummm not really, in fact, what I've been saying is almost exactly the opposite of that.

1st - As I said earlier... Cold does NOT encourage yeast to drop. Cold inactivates yeast, inactive yeast drop. If your yeast is already inactive because fermentation has finished, then cold has no effect on the rate at which the yeast drops. Gelatin on the other hand does effect the rate at which yeast drops, By speeding it up, it does this whether things are cold or not. So, if your fermentation is finished and you want to remove the yeast... You add gelatin and give to some time to work. 3-4 days would probably do the trick, but I'd give it a week. Warm or cold, no difference really.

2nd - when you say cold break, I am going to assume you mean chill haze. And what you describe is not the way polyclar stops chill haze. Polyclar is not a finings agent like isinglass or gelatin. It does not cause chill haze to precipitate and fall to the bottom... It stops it forming at all in the first place, by absorbing one of the key components of chill haze formation. If you polyclar, chill haze will simply not form at all. Common wisdom has it that polyclar needs to be added to cold beer to work, but this is not actually true, polyclar does it's job at any temperature up to and including boiling. Polyclar VT itself will need a day or so to settle out if you aren't filtering... But after that CCing will do nothing to help you with haze stability in your beer... That's what the polyclar was for and it's already done it's job in the first few hours.

So your plan and technique would work just as well if you did it all at 16 degrees as at 1 degree. Mind you, if you are able to do so with little trouble... I think you should do it all at 1 degree. And further... Remember I have only been talking about the clarification steps.. In response to an original question about effective temperatures for gelatin.... I am not talking about the flavor effects that a period of cold conditioning can have on your beer due to micro activity from the yeast subtly changing the balance of flavor active components in the beer. Just about clarity.

Make it as cold as you can, add your finings and/or stabilizing agents to the cold beer, CC it for as long as you can stand.... That technique will and does work. We know that for sure. BUT - if you know how the individual components work and why, then if you find a situation where for some reason the full CCing routine is impossible or impractical, you also know when and where you are able to do it differently and still get good results.

TB

 

[manticle]

TB - Reading all this is making me think about my current understanding of things. I understand that cold won't make yeast drop if it's active but isn't some of it active after FG is reached (hence the idea of dropping it out of suspension and thereby using cold to clarify your beer)?

If I hit 1010 and my beer will ferment no further, there is still yeast in suspension doing things other than making alc and co2 as far as I understand or have I got it backwards?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

TB - Reading all this is making me think about my current understanding of things. I understand that cold won't make yeast drop if it's active but isn't some of it active after FG is reached (hence the idea of dropping it out of suspension and thereby using cold to clarify your beer)?

If I hit 1010 and my beer will ferment no further, there is still yeast in suspension doing things other than making alc and co2 as far as I understand or have I got it backwards?

No - cold will inactivate yeast and make it drop. But if your beer has finished fermenting... Then its already inactive and will drop by itself. If it will ferment no further... Then its done and the yeast is already falling - cold will not make the "falling" part happen any faster. Remember... Yeast can't swim, the only way they can defy gravity and stay in suspension is either by producing CO2 and the bubbles sticking to the yeast a bit so they float, or by the currents produced as a result of co2 bubbles rising to the top. If there is no fermentation and gravity isn't dropping, then there is no CO2. No currents, bubbles will eventually knock off the cells - they will fall to the bottom. No fermentation equals falling yeast. Cold isn't part of that equation.

What effects the rate at which the cells fall is primarily the degree to which they flocculate and gelatin enhances the flocculation or pretty much that's what it does anyway.

Using cold to "drop" yeast is primarily a practice of commercial breweries who want to transfer to storage/lagering before terminal gravity is reached, or to control final gravity by cutting off fermentation at a specific level.

What you need after that is time for the yeast to fall, and if you are going to be letting your beer sit around on nits inactive yeast for lengthy periods of time... Then best you do that cold so you avoid autolysis. So it's an interplay of reasons..once again, cold & time are best.... Everything else is for when you cant or won't do it that way.

 

[haysie]

by the time you typed all that, the gelatine did its work. CHILL!

EDIT WITH A SMILEY,

TB, throw your brewing prowess behind Vicbrew2010, we need good brewers!

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I thought you didn't like it when I enter amateur comps??

At any rate, sorry but I won't be any help this year... Going OS for 5 weeks at the end of next week. Haven't had time for targeted brewing, didn't get beers done for mash paddle, wont have time to finish of the current ones and wont be in the country for cut off dates or comp dates anyway... First time in a few years, but no comp entries of any description for me this year.

I like long posts anyway.... You may have noticed

 

[haysie]

I thought you didn't like it when I enter amateur comps??

At any rate, sorry but I won't be any help this year... Going OS for 5 weeks at the end of next week. Haven't had time for targeted brewing, didn't get beers done for mash paddle, wont have time to finish of the current ones and wont be in the country for cut off dates or comp dates anyway... First time in a few years, but no comp entries of any description for me this year.

I like long posts anyway.... You may have noticed
[/quote

Sentence1. I dont.
Sentence2. Have a good holiday and drown
Sentence3. Your posts are good !!

 

[manticle]

No - cold will inactivate yeast and make it drop. But if your beer has finished fermenting... Then its already inactive and will drop by itself. If it will ferment no further... Then its done and the yeast is already falling - cold will not make the "falling" part happen any faster. Remember... Yeast can't swim, the only way they can defy gravity and stay in suspension is either by producing CO2 and the bubbles sticking to the yeast a bit so they float, or by the currents produced as a result of co2 bubbles rising to the top. If there is no fermentation and gravity isn't dropping, then there is no CO2. No currents, bubbles will eventually knock off the cells - they will fall to the bottom. No fermentation equals falling yeast. Cold isn't part of that equation.

What effects the rate at which the cells fall is primarily the degree to which they flocculate and gelatin enhances the flocculation or pretty much that's what it does anyway.

Using cold to "drop" yeast is primarily a practice of commercial breweries who want to transfer to storage/lagering before terminal gravity is reached, or to control final gravity by cutting off fermentation at a specific level.

What you need after that is time for the yeast to fall, and if you are going to be letting your beer sit around on nits inactive yeast for lengthy periods of time... Then best you do that cold so you avoid autolysis. So it's an interplay of reasons..once again, cold & time are best.... Everything else is for when you cant or won't do it that way.

I think I understand. The reason I'm a little confused is because my understanding was that yeast were still working/active once FG was reached and my assumption was that yeast remaining in suspension were active in some way. You're suggetsing this is not the case - alc is made, yeast will drop?

I do know that my current methods result in tasty clean beer but my understanding of the whys and wherefores is not as clear as before. Normally I leave a few days (3-7) after FG is reached at the same temp. I guess the advantage is that I should be fairly certain FG is true (since I bottle in glass) but I have assumed previously that the yeast is also cleaning up any flavours such as diacetyl etc and is therefore active in some way.

I then CC for 24 hours, then fine (based on advice here - used to gelatine first then CC) then continue CC for another week.

I would CC for longer but normally have 2 -5 brews going and only one fridge.

 

[Fourstar]

I would CC for longer but normally have 2 -5 brews going and only one fridge.

and youre still not kegging!!! man your crazier than i thaught! i struggle to keep up with demand with kegs let alone bottle 5 batches at a time!

 

[manticle]

I think there's a chance that most homebrewers are lacking something in the sane department.

Kegs are for sooks (and quite possibly for me one day when I sort my life and space out a bit better).

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I think I understand. The reason I'm a little confused is because my understanding was that yeast were still working/active once FG was reached and my assumption was that yeast remaining in suspension were active in some way. You're suggetsing this is not the case - alc is made, yeast will drop?

I do know that my current methods result in tasty clean beer but my understanding of the whys and wherefores is not as clear as before. Normally I leave a few days (3-7) after FG is reached at the same temp. I guess the advantage is that I should be fairly certain FG is true (since I bottle in glass) but I have assumed previously that the yeast is also cleaning up any flavours such as diacetyl etc and is therefore active in some way.

I then CC for 24 hours, then fine (based on advice here - used to gelatine first then CC) then continue CC for another week.

I would CC for longer but normally have 2 -5 brews going and only one fridge.

It is still cleaning up flavors etc... Remember, this stuff isn't about lines and absolutes... Even in what appears to be super clear beer there are going to be millions and millions of yeast cells. Yeast is still micro active at cold temps, still just ticking over and changing things, still being swirled up into suspension by ambient temp convection currents etc etc.

Its just a matter of turning the reasoning around... Yeast isn't active because it's in suspension... It's in suspension because it's active.

But that's the gross activity... The vigorous activity that stirs stuff up so you can see it. Yeast is still doing stuff after it stops fermenting.. But the lions share, the amounts you are talking about when we refer to making clear beer... Then that's all heading for mother earth as soon as there is nothing to hold it up. But it's also very very small and light... So it might take a very long time to hit the bottom.

 

[manticle]

Fits back in with my current understanding as far as I can tell.

In a nutshell then- does my current method outlined above make sense or not? How could it be improved?

cheers

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I can see no reason to change what you are currently doing. Assuming of course it's giving you the results you are after. If on the other hand you have a reason you want to change.... Then what I have been babbling about might give you an idea of where and what you can get away with.

 

[Back Yard Brewer]

Please explain, I'm new to gelatin (finings). My process, 1tsp gelatin in 1 cup boiling water, mix well into chilled brew.
Cheers

I am "not new" to gelatin and your above process is the exact process I use. Beer comes out of it almost crystal.

A lot of thread comments seem to turn into a pissing contest So to all just take my current comment with a pinch of salt and continue..................

BYB