Mash Water Limit

[hamstringsally]

Hi guys,

have laid down my second all grain today and it did not goes as well as the first. this time we were after 25l for final instead of 23l so instead of 4.8kg of grain we had 5kg of grain. I did the same for my mash and added 20l of hot water, ending up with 14l and gained the rest with sparging. how much water should i be adding for the mash? is there a ratio i should be working of per weight in grains? does this effect my final product?
also if my temp drops below 62 deg during mash over the hour does this then mean I will not gain as much sugars as possible hence giving me a lighter been as a end result.

thanks in advance
:icon_cheers:


Hammo

 

[brianman]

Hi guys,

have laid down my second all grain today and it did not goes as well as the first. this time we were after 25l for final instead of 23l so instead of 4.8kg of grain we had 5kg of grain. I did the same for my mash and added 20l of hot water, ending up with 14l and gained the rest with sparging. how much water should i be adding for the mash? is there a ratio i should be working of per weight in grains? does this effect my final product?
also if my temp drops below 62 deg during mash over the hour does this then mean I will not gain as much sugars as possible hence giving me a lighter been as a end result.

thanks in advance
:icon_cheers:


Hammo

Hi Hammo,
No expert but you should have started the boil with at least 32lts depending on your boiler set up, that would give you 25lts into the fermenter, after losing approx. 1.5lts to trub/cooler. Mash at approx 2.5-3lts per kilo of grain, depends on the size of your mash tun, batch or fly sparge. I have a 23lt bucket and sparge twice with approx. 8lts each time, after mash out gives me 30.5 into my 30lt Crown urn, end up with approx. 23-24lts after 60min. boil, then top up to 27lts with cooled boiled water. That's using my very basic 3 vessel system.
End temp not so important as mash in temp., 65deg good start point, keep well insulated.
Hope this helps
Briby

 

[hamstringsally]

Hi Hammo,
No expert but you should have started the boil with at least 32lts depending on your boiler set up, that would give you 25lts into the fermenter, after losing approx. 1.5lts to trub/cooler. Mash at approx 2.5-3lts per kilo of grain, depends on the size of your mash tun, batch or fly sparge. I have a 23lt bucket and sparge twice with approx. 8lts each time, after mash out gives me 30.5 into my 30lt Crown urn, end up with approx. 23-24lts after 60min. boil, then top up to 27lts with cooled boiled water. That's using my very basic 3 vessel system.
End temp not so important as mash in temp., 65deg good start point, keep well insulated.
Hope this helps
Briby

thats interesting briby,

when you top up with the extra 2 to 3 litres at the end of boil does this effect your OG reading? does it thin out the beer?

The last batch was aiming for 23 l and i took it up to 29.5l before boil which worked out spot on. So you saying if I have 5 kg of grain I should mash it with about 15l ? Ive been doing it at 20l. not sure why but just found it on a american internet site but really do not understand the theory behind what im doing. learning more every week. what is the result when you mash more volume of liquid or less?
my mash tun is 36 l volume and my boil pot is 60 l

 

[hamstringsally]

Hi Hammo,
No expert but you should have started the boil with at least 32lts depending on your boiler set up, that would give you 25lts into the fermenter, after losing approx. 1.5lts to trub/cooler. Mash at approx 2.5-3lts per kilo of grain, depends on the size of your mash tun, batch or fly sparge. I have a 23lt bucket and sparge twice with approx. 8lts each time, after mash out gives me 30.5 into my 30lt Crown urn, end up with approx. 23-24lts after 60min. boil, then top up to 27lts with cooled boiled water. That's using my very basic 3 vessel system.
End temp not so important as mash in temp., 65deg good start point, keep well insulated.
Hope this helps
Briby

thats interesting briby,

when you top up with the extra 2 to 3 litres at the end of boil does this effect your OG reading? does it thin out the beer?

The last batch was aiming for 23 l and i took it up to 29.5l before boil which worked out spot on. So you saying if I have 5 kg of grain I should mash it with about 15l ? Ive been doing it at 20l. not sure why but just found it on a american internet site but really do not understand the theory behind what im doing. learning more every week. what is the result when you mash more volume of liquid or less?
my mash tun is 36 l volume and my boil pot is 60 l

 

[Wolfy]

have laid down my second all grain today and it did not goes as well as the first. this time we were after 25l for final instead of 23l so instead of 4.8kg of grain we had 5kg of grain. I did the same for my mash and added 20l of hot water, ending up with 14l and gained the rest with sparging. how much water should i be adding for the mash? is there a ratio i should be working of per weight in grains? does this effect my final product?
also if my temp drops below 62 deg during mash over the hour does this then mean I will not gain as much sugars as possible hence giving me a lighter been as a end result.

You didn't mention what type/style of beer you are making, so giving specific answers is not so easy.

Anywhere between about 2.5l/kg to about 4l/kg (water per kg of grain) is fine for your mash, the lower end is a stiff mash (less fermentable wort but quicker conversion) and the higher end will be thin mash (more fermentable wort but longer conversion time). So if you added 20L to 5kg of grain (hence 4l/kg), you're up at the thin-end of things, which is fine if you are looking for a more fermentable wort.
The grain will retain about 1l/kg (or a little more in your case), and you should be able to guess at the kettle and cooler losses for your system. Then from those numbers you can determine the amount of sparge water you will need to hit your target pre-boil volume.

Again mash temperature depends on the type/style you are brewing (and the grain you are using) but it may be that you have dropped a little below your target, however much of the conversion takes place fairly quickly (you can also add small amounts of boiling water in the future to keep your mash temp up if you notice it dropping too low).

? Ive been doing it at 20l. not sure why but just found it on a american internet site but really do not understand the theory behind what im doing. learning more every week. what is the result when you mash more volume of liquid or less?

You can start reading the theory here: http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14-6.html

 

[boybrewer]

You will get to know your system over time . How much water you will need for mashing in , sparging etc . Read more eg John Palmer he is free online . Everyones system is different . With mine I use Beersmith and it tells me how much water to mash with , how much to sparge with and over the brews I have tweaked my system to end up with 23lt in the fermenter. Obviously if you end up with less you sparge with more and vice versa . You will find on average you will mash in with an approximate literige of 15lt for 5kg of grain , depending on style . In other words some mashes could be thick with less water or thin like you have been doing with a higher lt/kg ratio either way you are going to turn out good beers .

 

[boybrewer]

DOH Wolfy I can't type fast enough

 

[hamstringsally]

You didn't mention what type/style of beer you are making, so giving specific answers is not so easy.

Anywhere between about 2.5l/kg to about 4l/kg (water per kg of grain) is fine for your mash, the lower end is a stiff mash (less fermentable wort but quicker conversion) and the higher end will be thin mash (more fermentable wort but longer conversion time). So if you added 20L to 5kg of grain (hence 4l/kg), you're up at the thin-end of things, which is fine if you are looking for a more fermentable wort.
The grain will retain about 1l/kg (or a little more in your case), and you should be able to guess at the kettle and cooler losses for your system. Then from those numbers you can determine the amount of sparge water you will need to hit your target pre-boil volume.

Again mash temperature depends on the type/style you are brewing (and the grain you are using) but it may be that you have dropped a little below your target, however much of the conversion takes place fairly quickly (you can also add small amounts of boiling water in the future to keep your mash temp up if you notice it dropping too low).

You can start reading the theory here: http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14-6.html

thanks wolfy great advice. I was making a little creatures pale ale. today made a munich style european lager. have to say the after bottling the little creatures pale ale today it tasted amazing flat. cant wait to crack it in a few weeks.

 

[hamstringsally]

You will get to know your system over time . How much water you will need for mashing in , sparging etc . Read more eg John Palmer he is free online . Everyones system is different . With mine I use Beersmith and it tells me how much water to mash with , how much to sparge with and over the brews I have tweaked my system to end up with 23lt in the fermenter. Obviously if you end up with less you sparge with more and vice versa . You will find on average you will mash in with an approximate literige of 15lt for 5kg of grain , depending on style . In other words some mashes could be thick with less water or thin like you have been doing with a higher lt/kg ratio either way you are going to turn out good beers .

thanks beer belly. the advice is great. I have to say Im loving the all grain brewing even though i went in a bit blind. but my theory is getting hands on and if i bugger it up its sometimes the best way to learn.

 

[brianman]

thats interesting briby,

when you top up with the extra 2 to 3 litres at the end of boil does this effect your OG reading? does it thin out the beer?

The last batch was aiming for 23 l and i took it up to 29.5l before boil which worked out spot on. So you saying if I have 5 kg of grain I should mash it with about 15l ? Ive been doing it at 20l. not sure why but just found it on a american internet site but really do not understand the theory behind what im doing. learning more every week. what is the result when you mash more volume of liquid or less?
my mash tun is 36 l volume and my boil pot is 60 l

MY batch size is 27lts, so bitterness and SG after top up is the same as boiling 35lts and not topping up, so in essence i'm just thining out a stronger liquor. I do it this way as i bottle and doesn't take much longer to bottle 27lts as 22-23lt.

 

[hamstringsally]

thanks beer belly. the advice is great. I have to say Im loving the all grain brewing even though i went in a bit blind. but my theory is getting hands on and if i bugger it up its sometimes the best way to learn.

another question i guess thats on my mind. My brew the other week went perfect with everything but my my Fg ended up giving me a alcohol content of around only 3.3 percent. As i did my mash it dropped under 62 deg for at least half the mash not knowing that a bit of boiling water would have brought it up. did not effect any of my readings of gravity before boil nor Og.
what caused the percentage to be around 3.3 instead of more 4.9?
Is this cos my mash temps dropped below 62 deg hence not extracting all the sugars that i should have hence come fermentation time not enough sugar?

 

[Wolfy]

what caused the percentage to be around 3.3 instead of more 4.9?

Do you crush your own grain? If so the crush size is generally the most common factor in determining efficiency.
Mash and sparge procedures (fly or batch sparge) as well as mash pH (did you test the pH? what was the grain bill?) also play their part - probably more so than the mash cooling a few degrees over an hour or so - so to get useful answers, you'll need to give some details about those (including your mash-tun design).

 

[Screwtop]

Hi guys,

have laid down my second all grain today and it did not goes as well as the first. this time we were after 25l for final instead of 23l so instead of 4.8kg of grain we had 5kg of grain. I did the same for my mash and added 20l of hot water, ending up with 14l and gained the rest with sparging. how much water should i be adding for the mash? is there a ratio i should be working of per weight in grains? does this effect my final product?
also if my temp drops below 62 deg during mash over the hour does this then mean I will not gain as much sugars as possible hence giving me a lighter been as a end result.

thanks in advance
:icon_cheers:


Hammo

I think you need to get your hands on as much brewing related text as possible! Try Palmers How To Brew for a starting point, online it's free.

Screwy

 

[Trent]

another question i guess thats on my mind. My brew the other week went perfect with everything but my my Fg ended up giving me a alcohol content of around only 3.3 percent. As i did my mash it dropped under 62 deg for at least half the mash not knowing that a bit of boiling water would have brought it up. did not effect any of my readings of gravity before boil nor Og.
what caused the percentage to be around 3.3 instead of more 4.9?
Is this cos my mash temps dropped below 62 deg hence not extracting all the sugars that i should have hence come fermentation time not enough sugar?

Mate
If you mashed at 62, with an OG that *should* have given you 4.9% (1046-1048), but your FG gave you only 3.3% alcohol (FG around 1022 or so?), then it sounds to me like your ferment wasnt complete, and you may end up with bottle bombs. If you provide us with a bit more detail on OG, FG, ferment regime, yeast type, all that kind of stuff, then we can help a little more.
Basically, as said before, the lower temp you mash at (between 60 and 65), the more fermentable sugars you will get (lower FG). The higher temp you mash at (66-72) the more unfermentable sugars, and the higher the FG you get, along with less alcohol/more body. Mash thickness also comes into play, and 4L/kg at 62 would give you a very dry finishing beer, providing there isnt shitloads of crystal malts.
Let us know the finer details of the beer, as I, for one, am very concerned you may have bottle bombs on your hands as you stated that OG wasnt affected, so I assume it was on target. Your dropping mash temp will not cause a lower alcohol percentage, but yes, you can add boiling water to bring the temp back up. In my opinion, if it drops less than 2 degrees over an hour, dont worry about it. If the FG is unusually high, then do worry about it.
Alternatively, if you are measuring your FG with a refractometer rather than a hydrometer, then that will be your problem (12P starting gravity, that reads 6P odd in a refract after ferment is 1048 down to 1009). I wont go into it too much, but do a search on refractometer during ferment or something similar and that will learn you plenty. If you dont know what a refractometer is, and used a hydrometer, I would be putting on gloves and goggles, and carefully checking the carb level in your last beer....
All the best
Trent

 

[hamstringsally]

Mate
If you mashed at 62, with an OG that *should* have given you 4.9% (1046-1048), but your FG gave you only 3.3% alcohol (FG around 1022 or so?), then it sounds to me like your ferment wasnt complete, and you may end up with bottle bombs. If you provide us with a bit more detail on OG, FG, ferment regime, yeast type, all that kind of stuff, then we can help a little more.
Basically, as said before, the lower temp you mash at (between 60 and 65), the more fermentable sugars you will get (lower FG). The higher temp you mash at (66-72) the more unfermentable sugars, and the higher the FG you get, along with less alcohol/more body. Mash thickness also comes into play, and 4L/kg at 62 would give you a very dry finishing beer, providing there isnt shitloads of crystal malts.
Let us know the finer details of the beer, as I, for one, am very concerned you may have bottle bombs on your hands as you stated that OG wasnt affected, so I assume it was on target. Your dropping mash temp will not cause a lower alcohol percentage, but yes, you can add boiling water to bring the temp back up. In my opinion, if it drops less than 2 degrees over an hour, dont worry about it. If the FG is unusually high, then do worry about it.
Alternatively, if you are measuring your FG with a refractometer rather than a hydrometer, then that will be your problem (12P starting gravity, that reads 6P odd in a refract after ferment is 1048 down to 1009). I wont go into it too much, but do a search on refractometer during ferment or something similar and that will learn you plenty. If you dont know what a refractometer is, and used a hydrometer, I would be putting on gloves and goggles, and carefully checking the carb level in your last beer....
All the best
Trent

I measured Fg with my refractometer. Ill do some more research on it. Hope i dont have bombs on the way. it sat in the fridge at constant 19 deg for two weeks. your right though cos I ended up with around 1.021 fg after one week so i left it for another and it was the same. I write down everything in a brew book but its in the shed wherer i brew at a mates so as soon as i can ill get all the finer details. thanks so much for the great advice.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

If the mash temp dropped to 62*c at the end it wont really affect the OG....Most of the conversion is done in the first 30mins ( depending on diastic level of your base malt )... Dropping to 62*c means you will have a drier thinner beer...

As far as your low OG/SG I would be looking at how you sparged as it is sparging that rinses the sugars from the grain bed.. If you batch sparge, using boiling water and recirculate it through the grain bed a few times to help rinse the grain...you will need about 3-4 batch sparges to get your volume. For 23ltr in the ferm, you need about 28-29ltrs in the kettle

 

[gap]

I measured Fg with my refractometer.

You cannot measure FG with a Refactometer unless you use a chart or calculator
to compensate for the alcohol in the wort. A straight Refractometer reading is not your FG.

Regards

Graeme

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

+1


Alch affects the refractive index of beer

 

[Trent]

Yep, there's yer problem.
As I said in a kinda not straight forward way, if you start out at 12P (1048) and you read around 6P after ferment has finished, then it isnt 1024. Alcohol skews the refraction of light. There are several refractometer charts that tell you what the SG is of a specific refract reading after fermentation has begun.
12P starting gravity - 6.4P is 1.012. 6.2P is 1.011, 6P is 1.009.
Sounds like you have achieved a full ferment. And I dont mean to sound rude, but you gotta crawl before you can walk. Make sure you use a hydrometer aswell as your refractometer. It may not be so important when you are experienced, but considering this is your second or third all grain beer, you really need to use as many tools to help you as you possibly can.
All the best
Trent

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Yes...most important to crawl before walking..

There are many factors that will determine your final SG and overall efficiency...

Grain Crush...to coarse or fine will lower conversion and extraction

Grain Bill...Grain bills with a high % of roast/dark/Xtal sometimes wont sparge as easily

Mash temp...A higher mash temp will result in a "sweeter" beer than a low mash temp "drier" beer. Drier beers will ferment out lower than sweeter ones

Sparging...the more you recirculate the sparge water the more sugars you rinse out of the grain

Sparge water temp....higher the sparge water temp, the more sugars you will extract out

Water...the minerals in your water can help the yeast by giving it nutrients....healthy yest = better fermentation

The more you brew, the more you will find out how and where to make improvements

:icon_cheers: