Mash Ph And Its Effects On Haze

[Tony]

Hi all

I recently posted a topic questioning a mashes pH effect on haze in the beer.

The eleged best pH range is suposed to be between 5.0 and 5.5 for the mash.

I used my new ph meter good to 1/100th of a pH today and here are the results.

Recipe:

Bulls EyePA 2

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 52.00 Wort Size (L): 52.00
Total Grain (kg): 12.40
Anticipated OG: 1.055 Plato: 13.60
Anticipated EBC: 20.0
Anticipated IBU: 48.5
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 75 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
64.5 8.00 kg. TF Maris Otter Pale Ale Malt UK 1.037 5
24.2 3.00 kg. Weyermann Vienna Germany 1.038 7
5.6 0.70 kg. TF Caramalt UK 1.034 30
4.0 0.50 kg. TF Crystal UK 1.034 145
1.6 0.20 kg. JWM Dark Crystal Australia 1.036 230

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
40.00 g. Target Pellet 8.80 18.4 60 min.
30.00 g. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 5.20 4.9 20 min.
30.00 g. Wye Challenger Pellet 6.60 6.3 20 min.
30.00 g. Wye Northdown Pellet 7.20 6.8 20 min.
30.00 g. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 5.20 3.0 10 min.
30.00 g. Wye Challenger Pellet 6.60 3.8 10 min.
30.00 g. Wye Northdown Pellet 7.20 4.1 10 min.
30.00 g. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 5.20 0.4 1 min.
30.00 g. Wye Challenger Pellet 6.60 0.4 1 min.
30.00 g. Wye Northdown Pellet 7.20 0.5 1 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.09 Oz Irish Moss Fining 15 Min.(boil)


Yeast
-----

WYeast 1335 British Ale II



I tested the town water with no adjustments and got a pH of 7.96. A bit high !!!

On mashing in i let it stand for a couple of minuites and tested the pH. got 5.71.

I added 2 teaspoons of gypsum to yhe mash and stired in well and got 5.64. Not the inprovement i was hopping on.

Well being an IPA i figured burtonising the water wouldnt hurt so in went another 2 teaspoons (this is a 45 liter volume mash dont forget) and got it down to 5.60

I am now condiderind some sort of acid addition to buffer the high town waters pH and lower the mash pH to the 5.3 that i was aiming for.

Does anyone have any sugestions on what to use?

citric i have but im sure there are others.

cheers

 

[sjc]

Tony
you could try lactic acid or phosphoric acid, both food grade. I was able to pick up some lactic acid from a friendly local chemist, while the phosphoric I obtained through a hbs. As they are both strong (90% or more), it is a good idea to make up a solution of them (say to pH 2.0) and then add the solution to the mash. This will reduce the chance of overshooting with your pH. Alternatively, you could purchase saurmalt (or make your own) to use for adjusting mash pH.
Good luck.
Cheers
Stephen.

 

[AndrewQLD]

Tony,
You should be taking a sample off the mash that is all liquor without any of the grist, too much grain in tha sample can lead to poor and inaccurate readings.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[warrenlw63]

Some Weyermann acidulated malt would be a good idea too.

Warren -

 

[dicko]

Hi Tony,
When I am making light coloured beers I tend to use rainwater,
My rainwater is generally around PH 7.9.
I adjust the PH of the water in the HLT to give me a PH of 6 and I generally achieve a mash ph of around 5.3 to 5.5.
With dark beers I tend not to worry too much and in these I quite often use town water which has a PH of 8.3
I use food grade Phosphoric acid and generally only need a couple of mls to make any adjustment on 40 litres. I use a small syringe to measure the acid.
I dont know if it has any real or measurable effect on clarity.
My clarity improved greatly when I changed my system to make double batches(50 litres) and increase the kettle size to 90 litres so that I could get a real good boil happening.
I should add that if I use rainwater then I try to add a bit of old yeast to the boil to give the ferment some nutrients.
These procedures are not etched in stone but seem to give me reasonable results.
Cheers

 

[wessmith]

Just a very quick and general comment: it is TOO LATE to try and correct the mash pH AFTER mashin. The powerfull buffering effect of the mash will require large doses of any acid material to bring the mash down - at which point you will have almost certainly skewed the flavour.

Do some reading on water profiles for the type of beer you are intending to brew and treat the strike water before mashin. This could be with calcium sulphate, lactic acid, phosphoric acid or Weyermann aidulated malt.

This is one of the most importatnt phases of AG brewing to get right as it has so many flow on effects like extract, tannin pickup, kettle flocculation, yeast performance etc etc.

Wes

 

[Kai]

I'm confused, Wes. Why would the timing of the pH adjustment addition affect its buffering capacity?

 

[wessmith]

Kai, the moment you mashin, various chemical reactions take place setting the pH from available materials. Malt phosphates, mineral salts, acid additions and the influence of darker malts all have a bearing on how this event finalises. Within 5 minutes or so the mash has buffered to its settling point. Trying to budge it from that point requires a lot of additional chemicals to the detriment of flavour.

This aspect of AG brewing as I said, is the most critical and possibly the most difficult to come to terms with, but it sets the grounds for so many subsequent events in the progression from grain to glass. Worth some time spent reading up if you really want to master AG.

Wes

 

[Millet Man]

I'm confused, Wes. Why would the timing of the pH adjustment addition affect its buffering capacity?

[post="128302"][/post]​

Kai,

Here's a link someone sent me when I asked about pH buffering.

I still don't fully understand it but my experience was similar to Tony's when I first started measuring pH. My water is fairly soft with a pH of around 7.6 - mashed in and it was 5.7, added gypsum and it barely changed, had to add so much citric acid to get it down to 5.2 that I could smell lemons :huh: and ruined the brew!

Since then I add gypsum to hot liquor and adjust pH to 6.0 with a very small amount of citric acid. Mash pH always comes out at 5.4 for light beers and 5.2 for dark ones.

So the timing does effect how much you need to add to get the right pH. Why, I dunno but it works for me.

Cheers, Andrew.

 

[berapnopod]

Tony, you mentioned you let your samples sit for a couple of minutes before testing the pH. Its my understanding that the pH of the mash depends on temperature. I can't remember the details of this, but perhaps the fact that you measured it while still warm could have given you higher than expected readings?

Berp.

 

[Tony]

I have always adjusted mt strike water before adding it to the grain. I just wanted to see what pH it was without anything added in.

I alread use calciun carbonate, calcium cloride and calciun sulphate in the strike water wes but i am also confused as to the difference adding before or later will make.

I am planing on doing the same thing with a pale beer to compare the results, thats the idea of this.

I have also used the acidulatedf malt but once again, i dont have results to show the difference it makes.

I will try to track down some acide and try them too.

cheers all

 

[wessmith]

All, have a look at this piece from John Palmers book on brewing. It partly explains the mash buffering and the setting of overall parameters.

Wes


http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-3.html

 

[Kai]

Wes, I understand buffers despite my best efforts to eradicate a not-yet-completed tertiary education from my brain. What I don't get is how the timing of the additions affects how the pH turns out, perhaps it's in one of those links above but I'm too addled to ferret it out at this moment.

It's always been my understanding that the buffering effect of the grain will affect your mash regardless of what the pH of your liquor is, as it is easy to adjust your liquor pH because it has negligible buffering capacity. As consequence I've been under the impression that the mash pH is the more important value than the liquor pH.

 

[Darren]

Kai,
My take on it would be simply, it is easier to adjust uniformly the pH of the water. If you try to adjust the mash you would be stirring for half an hour or more. I doubt it makes a difference to the final pH of the mash either way so long as you can stir it thoroughly.

cheers

Darren

 

[Tony]

Darren..... for once we see eye to eye

I am doing these trials to see what the initial mash pH is and what effect adding the calcium sulphate makes.

I cant see the difference if i add it to the HLT.

I hope to learn how much of what minerals i need for different beers of different colors and wether a bit of calcium cloride or some gypsum will be enough fo hit the targer pH. Or will i need to go further.

Just put the days brewing numbers into promash.

Usually i would have added 2 teaspoons gypsum to the mash and2 to the sparge but today i ended up with 4 in the mash and 2 in the sparge and got a nice 5% increase in efficiency.

I usually get around 74 to 76% efficiency for a single infusion mash and 80 to 83% for a double decoction.

Got 80 % with a single infusion and the wort was the clearest into the firmenter ive seen from my system for a while.

next brew will be a 100% JW Pils lager to see what happens there.

cheers

 

[Tony]

Oh and berapnopod.

The pH tester i got has automatic temperature compensation and a temperature readout.

I work with industrial pH meters on a large scale with glucose production so know a thing or two

we use hydrocloric acid to adjust pH of the finished glucose and caustic to adjust the pH of the starch that will be turned into glucose but i wouldnt use any of these in my beer.

Millet Man:

I have always said to learn from those who have already made the mistakes.

I will try this next brew, scrap the pale lager.

I will brew a 20 EBC beer and treat the water as you have mentioned and see what difference it makes.

I think the killer is the initial water pH of 8. If i can get that down i think it will help a lot.

cheers

 

[sam]

Wes, I understand buffers despite my best efforts to eradicate a not-yet-completed tertiary education from my brain. What I don't get is how the timing of the additions affects how the pH turns out, perhaps it's in one of those links above but I'm too addled to ferret it out at this moment.

It's always been my understanding that the buffering effect of the grain will affect your mash regardless of what the pH of your liquor is, as it is easy to adjust your liquor pH because it has negligible buffering capacity. As consequence I've been under the impression that the mash pH is the more important value than the liquor pH.

[post="128353"][/post]​

I'm with Kai on this one, and have changed the mash pH after mash-in with small additions (10ml of 10% Lactic from memory) from about 5.6 to 5.3.

I don't understand how it makes a difference. Either way, the acid has to overcome the buffering capacity of the malt. As long as the pH is corrected in the intial 5 mins (or less preferable) I think it would be fine.

Thanks for the link to that MBAA article.

Cheers,

Sam

 

[Tony]

Well i think im getting on top of my haze problems.

A bigger burner with a more vigerous boil and PH adjustments to with in the 5 to 5.5 pH range has rendered clear lager beer.

Another thing i discovered last brew was that now that the kettle is up on a brew stand and not on the ground i can gravity feed it to the firmenter instead of pumping it and this picked up less trub and gave ne a clearer wort in the firmenter. The break seems to "break" back up as it goes through the pump so all will be gravity fed to firmenter from now on.

cheer

Ohhhh here is a pic of the classic american Pils i tapped tohs arvo.

this is the 3rd schooner out of it and its at about 6 deg c.

Would you believe that 1 seconds after the pic was taken the USB cable from the camera flipped the beer and the lot went into the mouse, keyboard and paper drawer on the computer desk.

Now the computer smells like pub carpet.

OOOOOOOOOO im going to be in the shit in the morning

nice knowing you all :unsure:

cheers