Mash Hop Only

[timmy]

Here's one I'm looking at doing tomorrow for two reasons, firstly to disspell any rumours about mash hopping and secondly use up my old stocks of hops.

looking at

4.5kg weyermann pils
.5 powells munich
.2kg melanoiden
.2kg powells wheat

120g amarillo pellets mash hop 9%aa
80g cascade pellets mash hop 6%aa

batch size 23l
US56 yeast (forgot to make a WLP001 starter)

Promash seems to think 153 ibu's. Either way it should be a ball tearer. I don't want to push the OG up too high as i don't want to hide the hops behind the malt, if at all possible with 200g of american hops. :beerbang:

Does anyone have a clue as to how it will turn out? ie high flavour low bitterness?

 

[goatherder]

I reckon you'll lose a fair bit of aroma in the boil.

 

[Ross]

Bloody hell Timmy, 150+ IBU's in a 5% beer - Those hop's will have nowhere to hide

You might have to get Duff to come & help you drink that one

200gms of hops a brew....music to my ears B)

cheers Ross

 

[stephen]

I would use the cascade as hop additions in the last 20 minutes of the boil. eg, Add 20 gm at 20, 15, 10 and 5 minutes.

As for the bitterness from mash hopping I don't know.

Steve

 

[timmy]

Stephen, Done a mountain of APA's with additions every 10 mins and a couple with additions every 5 mins with great results but that's not what I'm trying to do here. It's myth buster time................................

The idea is to see what flavours/aromas and bitterness are kept after the boil. I want to see how much truth is in the rumour that the volatile compounds are bonded during the mash which supposedly stops them being driven off in the boil. I've read enough arguments online for and against to be totally confused.

Ross, 200g of yank hops in a 5% beer will be awesome, it'll have to taste good no matter what, although i can hear Gerard cringe from here. My last highly hopped APA was bitter enough to kill my tastebuds after 2 schooners- no sense of taste until the next day!

Btw i going for a 60 minute boil.

 

[stephen]

Well in that case Timmy, go and bust that myth, as long as you let us know the final outcome.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Voosher]

Here's one I'm looking at doing tomorrow for two reasons, firstly to disspell any rumours about mash hopping and secondly use up my old stocks of hops.

looking at

4.5kg weyermann pils
.5 powells munich
.2kg melanoiden
.2kg powells wheat

120g amarillo pellets mash hop 9%aa
80g cascade pellets mash hop 6%aa

batch size 23l
US56 yeast (forgot to make a WLP001 starter)

Promash seems to think 153 ibu's. Either way it should be a ball tearer. I don't want to push the OG up too high as i don't want to hide the hops behind the malt, if at all possible with 200g of american hops. :beerbang:

Does anyone have a clue as to how it will turn out? ie high flavour low bitterness?

I started a similar thread a while ago...
Mash Hop Utilisation

My effort is somewhat tame compared to yours.
It gets racked to secondary in the next couple of days so still a bit of a wait until I can enter a verdict.
Will be very interested in your results.
Keep us posted.

 

[MHB]

Timmy
Any chance of a bottle, I think I can wrangle an IBU test and would love to know the real rather than perceived bitterness.

I have my doubts about how much alpha acid will make it from the mash tun to the kettle, lots of other hop products will I am sure, but alpha acid is virtually insoluble until isomerised.

MHB

 

[timmy]

MHB, i'll see what I can do.

Voosher, I think it was you who got me thinking about this.

AANyway i'm off to crack the grains.

 

[Ross]

I have my doubts about how much alpha acid will make it from the mash tun to the kettle, lots of other hop products will I am sure, but alpha acid is virtually insoluble until isomerised.

MHB

Mark, what would be your educated guess then at the IBU?

Cheers Ross

 

[MHB]

Ross
I would expect a low bitterness.
Mind you with the amount of hops going into the brew above, if there is any chance of this process working, this is it.

The results relate to the same questions posed in first wort hopping, there is a reported smoother bitterness; this is I believe a result of relatively high concentrations of hop oil breakdown products. The break down products still give bacterial protection but lack the harshness of iso-alpha-acid (like using aged hops in Belgian beers?).

I dont doubt that significant amounts of hop flavour will make it into the finished beer. The question of hop aroma surviving to bottling is an open one, with very mixed results reported.
I could not find any reference to a wort that was mash hoped only, and all the results were subjective rather than quantitave.

Alpha acid is relatively insoluble, solubility decreeing as both temperature and pH fall. For there to be bitterness in the beer, alpha acid must be transported to the kettle, the only mechanisms for this are either physical or in solution.

The amount that will dissolve is minimal.
I suppose it is possible that some of the lupin glands will get washed out of the mash tun and travel with the sweet water into the kettle, but again I doubt it would be enough to give significant bitterness.

Good summary here:-
http://brewery.org/library/1stwort.html
Some more information.
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci...422000000100019
http://www.paddockwood.com/article_info.php?articles_id=3

Many even experienced beer judges have trouble distinguishing between Hop Taste and Hop Bitterness especially in highly hoped beers.

The short answer is I dont know but am interested enough in the question to try to get some hard facts rather than rely on perception.

MHB

 

[timmy]

Now running into the kettle, the smell and the taste are awesome, a bit of bitterness there and the runnings are, well..................Green!

By the looks of it the pellet hops do nothing to help with the runoff.

 

[Jye]

Now running into the kettle, the smell and the taste are awesome, a bit of bitterness there and the runnings are, well..................Green!

How much of this do you think will contribute to the bitterness? Even if only 5% gets into the boil it will be noticeable.

 

[timmy]

Now running into the kettle, the smell and the taste are awesome, a bit of bitterness there and the runnings are, well..................Green!

How much of this do you think will contribute to the bitterness? Even if only 5% gets into the boil it will be noticeable.

Ok, the beast is now in the fermenter and yeast pitched.

Had a sample from the hydrometer tube, Bitterness is noticeable but not huge, flavour is just there and aroma almost not. During the boil i noticed by 30 minutes the aroma was really dying off. Was tempted to throw some amarillo in late in the boil but decided to push on with the original plan.

One thing to keep in mind is that 200g of pellets in the mash is a good cause for a stuck sparge, first time since i revised the manifold last year. Even a 70% wheat bill didn't stick. I lost a bit of efficiency because i got the ***** and stopped the runnings leaving a couple of ltre still in the mash.

 

[MHB]

The Green is obviously hop powder being transported to the kettle. I suspect any bitterness will come from this portion of the hops.

I will haply donate a couple of hundred grams of flowers is someone who wants to try a similar experiment using flowers. Only have Prides at the moment but will get some Cascade and maybe a few others in the next couple of weeks.

MHB

 

[Ross]

As put in Vooshers earlier thread I'm doing my house Amber using this method next week.
This 3% Amber normally has only 15 min, 5 min & flameout additions & is bittered to 25 IBU's.
I'm making exactly the same recipe, but substituting these additions all to the mash.
This should give a true comparison, rather than adding such a huge hop addition as in Timmys.

Hopefully I won't get a sweet, hop lacking wort, but we'll see...

Cheers Ross

 

[Tony]

mmmmmm very interesting.

I have been doing a bit of thinking about mash hopping but there isnt enough info available to really tell me if its worth doing or what to set the utilisation rate to in promash to get an acurate result.

I was going to coment that it might be beter done with whole hops as aposed to pellets.

I would have a go but i wont be brewing for a while.
I have a 150 liter backlog waiting to go into legs and bottles and i am hardly going to be home for a while to drink it now that im moving back down to the hunter valley.

would be interesting to get some figures from a couple of different brewers with exact IBU rates and the hops used.

might answer the questions that many cant.........

WHAT IS THE MASH HOP UTALISATION RATE ???????????????????

cheers

 

[Ross]

I have a 150 liter backlog waiting to go into legs
cheers

Might give you a touch of the old Wobbly legs

 

[Tony]

it would if i had kegs to put it in like you ross

It will have to wait in CC for a while or be bottled while i sort out moving half way across the state and working at the same time.

cheers

 

[goatherder]

Beersmith has a mash hop option but alas, it appears to use the same utilisation as if it was added to the boil. I wonder if this is by design or by default?