Mangrove jack west coast ale m44 yeast lagging

[Vini2ton]

Well, come on, I've been brewing for years. Helped the old man when I was a kid (about 1972 was my first experience with brewing) so I couldn't really give a rat's arse what "Jamil " reckons. Pedants write books. Good beer is good beer. Many roads lead to Rome but some are more annoying.

 

[whitegoose]

I agree with the lag comments... I pitched 2 packets of M44 to 23 L of 1.060 IPA a couple of weeks ago and there was no activity for 48 hours - I was spinning out a little bit - then it went BEZERK

 

[goatchop41]

Well, come on, I've been brewing for years. Helped the old man when I was a kid (about 1972 was my first experience with brewing) so I couldn't really give a rat's arse what "Jamil " reckons. Pedants write books. Good beer is good beer. Many roads lead to Rome but some are more annoying.

Some pedants do research and present their findings in the form of a book that allows you to easily digest the information yourself in a short course....there's no need to be hostile just because someone is challenging your own long held belief. Unless you do microscopic cell counts yourself, then you can't really refute their research.....
Essentially, if it there was solid evidence out there that it was unnecessary for you to be making starters with dried yeast, which would then save you the time and effort involved in making a starter, would you ignore that fact just because making a starter is something that you've always done?

 

[NewtownClown]

Liquid yeast, yes, but a bit of research will tell you that starters for dry yeast generally aren't the go....I've read some stuff from Jamil that they can actually hurt viable yeast numbers in dry yeast! And for the price and effort involved when it comes to dry yeast, you may as well just grab another packet instead....

You are correct in that sprinkling dry yeast directly, whether it be a starter or full volume of wort, will reduce the number of viable cells. However, the advice to re-hydrate prior to inoculating a starter is quite sound.

 

[NewtownClown]

Well, come on, I've been brewing for years. Helped the old man when I was a kid (about 1972 was my first experience with brewing) so I couldn't really give a rat's arse what "Jamil " reckons. Pedants write books. Good beer is good beer. Many roads lead to Rome but some are more annoying.

This, so-called, pedant, also owns a a successful brewery.

 

[Vini2ton]

Apologies to Jamil.

 

[Yob]

Is also the most awarded homebrewer in America no?

...and helped write the yeast book with Chris white from Whitelabs...

 

[goatchop41]

This, so-called, pedant, also owns a a successful brewery.

Is also the most awarded homebrewer in America no?

...and helped write the yeast book with Chris white from Whitelabs...

Yes, yes and yes. I should have been clearer and stated those facts about him, as I knew them. The book 'Yeast' is a bloody heavy read, but has some good stuff. Hence why I would give his words quite a bit of weight when considering how they would affect my brewing practices.

You are correct in that sprinkling dry yeast directly, whether it be a starter or full volume of wort, will reduce the number of viable cells. However, the advice to re-hydrate prior to inoculating a starter is quite sound.

I certainly agree, but there is a difference between rehydrating and making a starter. I might have not been clear enough from the start, I was trying to make the distinction that rehydrating dry yeast is good, but making a starter with dry yeast is not necessarily good. Wasn't trying to be argumentative for the sake of it.

 

[Rocker1986]

This is something that's always interested me, as I will occasionally make starters with dry yeast, in order to harvest a portion of the starter for future use. After that I guess they become liquid yeast anyway really. I always rehydrate the yeast before pitching it either into the main batch of wort or into a starter.

Is it bad practice to make starters even with rehydrated dry yeast, or is it not much different to pitching it into a bigger batch of wort?

FWIW I can't really detect any issues in the finished beer from doing it.

 

[NewtownClown]

I certainly agree, but there is a difference between rehydrating and making a starter. I might have not been clear enough from the start, I was trying to make the distinction that rehydrating dry yeast is good, but making a starter with dry yeast is not necessarily good. Wasn't trying to be argumentative for the sake of it.

I didn't think, nor suggest, you were being argumentative. Perhaps you misunderstood my post.

Making a starter from re-hydrated yeast - as vini2ton had suggested in his post - is okay practice.
Sprinkling the yeast directly on wort will result in a drop in viable cells and is not best practice - as you suggest in your reply to him (but it is still okay if you are prepared to take that hit by taking into account the reduced cell numbers when calculating the pitching rate).
Jamil's discussion was about sprinkling yeast on a starter wort - indeed not good practice, it would be very difficult to determine the final, approximate cell count.

Pitching re-hydrated yeast in a starter is, after all, just like making a small batch of small beer. I wouldn't bother when dry yeast is $4.50 - $6.00 a pack, my time is more valuable than that.

 

[Rocker1986]

Ok thanks for that.

I only make them in order to harvest a portion of the starter into a jar to store for the next batch. If I was harvesting from the trub after fermenting the batch then yeah, I would simply re-hydrate the yeast and pitch into the main batch. Horses for courses I suppose.

 

[TheWiggman]

I made a LCBA-alike last week and had M44 on hand. Never used it before. I got excellent efficiency and ended up with 22.5l of 1.050 into the fermenter.
I decided to do a mini-starter as Newtown noted (a 1:40 round trip to the home brew store was out of the question) to see how long it would take.

• 1l first kettle runnings into a flask
• 21.5l into a cube
• Rehydrated M44
• After 1l flask had cooled, rehydrated yeast went in

Brew day was Saturday, yeast into the flask around 6 PM.

Sunday no action.
Monday no action. Moved from the kitchen bench into a fridge with a heater.
Tuesday... no action. Flask felt a bit cool. Bumped temp of heat belt up to 28°C.
Wednesday PM, some sign of life notable on the surface. Cube comically emptied while trying to strain cube hops in vain and yeast pitched at around 15°C. Temp was set at 17.5°C.

By Thursday night there was minor evidence of fermentation and the SG had dropped 3 points. Bumped to 18°C. Last night (4 days later) it's finishing and sitting at 1.013 so I bumped the temp up to 20°C.

This yeast doesn't seem to like cool temps at all. Tasting throughout has varied substantially, with vinyl-like tastes early on that settled to showcase more of the hop characteristics last night. The Summer hops really showcase melon character and combined with the fruitiness of Ella, this will make for an interesting beer.

 

[TheWiggman]

I don't know what's going on but this beer seems like it's ruined. The vinyl taste I mentioned is what I understand as phenolics - strong wheat-like character to it. I had a whiff from the clove jar and it's a different smell, I wouldn't say bandaid-like but I would say like plastic.

I used Brewbrite and geletined / cold crashed at 0°C for 2 days and it came out cloudy. Referring to this article I'm guessing that the issue might be polyphenols from a poor mash or sparge. I struggle to believe that because I made fair adjustments with salts in the mash and I sparged to the button (i.e. drained the mash to hit the right preboil volume) with 77°C water. However the pH of water was at least 7.6 as my test kit doesn't go any higher.
That said, my previous beers have been fine and specifically the last beer - CPA clone using the same fermenter - is glorious and possibly my most fault-free beer to date.

The only other time I've had a similar issue to this is when I used US-05, and the plastic flavour (which I attributed to poor hop storage) rendered the post-ferment beer undrinkable and I tipped it. Yeast was hydrated in both cases.

Anyone had this problem?

 

[Rocker1986]

I had a batch of lager come out tasting rather strange last year, I can't even describe it. Sort of like a solventy taste would be my best "guess". I put it down to the yeast not being in the best of health or numbers (it was W34/70). The only other difference was that it sat in the cube for about 12 months before I fermented it. Had not had this problem on any previous batches of similar recipes fermented with that yeast. I still drank it somehow. :lol: This brew wasn't gelatined but I did lager it at 0C for about 4-5 weeks before bottling.

I find PVPP is effective at removing polyphenols. I mainly use it as a 'cure' for chill haze, however reading up on it suggests that there are other benefits to removing these tannins aside from aesthetics.

 

[TheWiggman]

Well Brewbrite has PVPP in it so if it was effective at removing them on the mash side of things then I should be directing my attention to the ferment. Assuming polyphenols are the issue.
Actually, during the whirlpool there was a clump of white gunk around 2/3 the size of a marble. I thought it might have been coagulated Brewbrite (added at 5 mins) but it wouldn't break up when pressed against the side of the fermenter with the spoon. I threw it on the lawn but it was dark so didn't go back to check it.

The other unknown is 4 and 5 year old children trying to help with hop additions and inadvertently adding playdough or similar foreign matter.

 

[goatchop41]

I didn't think, nor suggest, you were being argumentative. Perhaps you misunderstood my post.

Making a starter from re-hydrated yeast - as vini2ton had suggested in his post - is okay practice.
Sprinkling the yeast directly on wort will result in a drop in viable cells and is not best practice - as you suggest in your reply to him (but it is still okay if you are prepared to take that hit by taking into account the reduced cell numbers when calculating the pitching rate).
Jamil's discussion was about sprinkling yeast on a starter wort - indeed not good practice, it would be very difficult to determine the final, approximate cell count.

Pitching re-hydrated yeast in a starter is, after all, just like making a small batch of small beer. I wouldn't bother when dry yeast is $4.50 - $6.00 a pack, my time is more valuable than that.

I see where you're coming from now :icon_cheers: You are spot on - once properly rehydrated, you could then go on to make a starter from it if you needed a higher pitching rate, or wanted to overbuild in order to harvest from the starter. I definitely agree that this is not worth it though, given the time that needs to be invested vs the cost of a packet of dried yeast

 

[goatchop41]

I don't know what's going on but this beer seems like it's ruined. The vinyl taste I mentioned is what I understand as phenolics - strong wheat-like character to it. I had a whiff from the clove jar and it's a different smell, I wouldn't say bandaid-like but I would say like plastic.

I used Brewbrite and geletined / cold crashed at 0°C for 2 days and it came out cloudy. Referring to this article I'm guessing that the issue might be polyphenols from a poor mash or sparge. I struggle to believe that because I made fair adjustments with salts in the mash and I sparged to the button (i.e. drained the mash to hit the right preboil volume) with 77°C water. However the pH of water was at least 7.6 as my test kit doesn't go any higher.
That said, my previous beers have been fine and specifically the last beer - CPA clone using the same fermenter - is glorious and possibly my most fault-free beer to date.

The only other time I've had a similar issue to this is when I used US-05, and the plastic flavour (which I attributed to poor hop storage) rendered the post-ferment beer undrinkable and I tipped it. Yeast was hydrated in both cases.

Anyone had this problem?

My S&W Pacific ale clone made with this yeast (that lagged like mad) had a similar flavour for a couple of months. Has since cleared up and is unreal. May as well give it some time and ride it out for a while.
I had been led to believe that plastic-y or band-aid-like phenolics don't age out, but this one did for me!

 

[Rocker1986]

I'm not convinced (yet) of Brewbrite's ability to remove these polyphenols. These combine with proteins at low temps and become visible, causing chill haze. I've used Brewbrite in every batch and still end up with chill haze. So either I haven't used enough in the boil, it only works effectively if the wort is chilled quickly (I no-chill), or it doesn't work at all. I just decided to use Polyclar during the cold crash as well, it removes them well.

I'm not sure it is the issue though, my understanding is that polyphenols affect the flavour in the longer term, as opposed to fresh beer.

 

[fraser_john]

Like many I have seen long lag times with the MJ yeasts, well over 48 hours in some cases. But, I noticed something with the last batch I pitched (around 10pm Saturday night).

Geelong Craft Brewers held a big brew day, where we all trundled our various systems over to one of our members places. I chilled my wort and let it rest whilst having dinner and a few beers and pitched about half an hour before my wife came and picked me up.

Loading the fermenter into the car resulted in tons of jostling, sloshing etc. Then the drive home we have multiple speed humps to navigate, so heaps more sloshing, then unloading from the car, more sloshing.

Lag time for this pitch of M44, about 22 hours!

Maybe the yeast likes a bit of beating after it has hydrated? Dunno, but it was the shorted lag time for any MJ yeast I have used to date.

 

[hoppinmad]

Like many I have seen long lag times with the MJ yeasts, well over 48 hours in some cases. But, I noticed something with the last batch I pitched (around 10pm Saturday night).

Geelong Craft Brewers held a big brew day, where we all trundled our various systems over to one of our members places. I chilled my wort and let it rest whilst having dinner and a few beers and pitched about half an hour before my wife came and picked me up.

Loading the fermenter into the car resulted in tons of jostling, sloshing etc. Then the drive home we have multiple speed humps to navigate, so heaps more sloshing, then unloading from the car, more sloshing.

Lag time for this pitch of M44, about 22 hours!

Maybe the yeast likes a bit of beating after it has hydrated? Dunno, but it was the shorted lag time for any MJ yeast I have used to date.

I reckon the cane sugar in your recipe would have helped also