Liquid Yeast Starters

[WitWonder]

New to liquid yeasts here and have read a fair bit about the process of making starters and so forth, however I'm not sure why there's a need to step up when making a starter? My understanding is the Wyeast activator packs have enough yeast cells to do a 22L batch, so why can't I make a single starter (say, 2L) and pitch the yeast right into that to get my cell count up rather than starting with say 1L and stepping up to 2L and so forth? Is it to do with bacteria or the nature of the yeast where they will 'work harder' in a smaller volume versus being pitched into a larger volume? What increments in step sizes do people do when preparing yeast for 40L batches?

Also, when I step up I assume I throw away the old starter liquid and just pour the slurry into the new vessel with the new starter liquid? Likewise when I pitch in my fermenter I am planning on throwing away the wort and just using the slurry because I don't want the lavour from the starter affecting my beer.

 

[BenH]

New to liquid yeasts here and have read a fair bit about the process of making starters and so forth, however I'm not sure why there's a need to step up when making a starter? My understanding is the Wyeast activator packs have enough yeast cells to do a 22L batch, so why can't I make a single starter (say, 2L) and pitch the yeast right into that to get my cell count up rather than starting with say 1L and stepping up to 2L and so forth? Is it to do with bacteria or the nature of the yeast where they will 'work harder' in a smaller volume versus being pitched into a larger volume? What increments in step sizes do people do when preparing yeast for 40L batches?

Also, when I step up I assume I throw away the old starter liquid and just pour the slurry into the new vessel with the new starter liquid? Likewise when I pitch in my fermenter I am planning on throwing away the wort and just using the slurry because I don't want the lavour from the starter affecting my beer.

You're right - the activator packs have enough yeasties for a 22L batch. If you're using the activators, there's no need for a starter. Most of us who use starters are trying to step up from a smaller amount of yeast (e.g. from a slant, from a White Labs tube, or from a Wyeast propogator). If using the activator for a 40L batch, I would pour straight into a 1-2L starter, no need to step up slowly.

The other thing that starters do is prove that your yeast are alive - but the smack pack activator will also tell you that once it has swollen up.

Re: what to pitch, if your starter is active, don't throw the liquid away, because it will contain a large amount of the active yeast. If the starter has stopped, you can refridgerate to drop all the yeast out of suspension, then pour the clear beer off the top (taste it), then pour the slurry into the brew. When stepping up your starters, there's no need to pour off the liquid - as you should be stepping up when the yeast is most active (and therefore in suspension, and if you pour off the liquid, you'll lose a lot of active yeast).

 

[BoilerBoy]

G'day witwonder,

You only have to step up if your starting with insufficient yeast to begin with eg from slants, or reculturing from bottles
In theory with activator packs you don't need a starter for a standard 23L batch
However, IMHO you are better off pitching a yeast you know is up and firing and for 40L batches you would have to step up anyway.

Also many people split their new yeast packs up to store for brews later down the track where stepping up will be required again to get the yeast numbers up.

Cheers
BB

 

[NeilArge]

Also many people split their new yeast packs up to store for brews later down the track where stepping up will be required again to get the yeast numbers up.

Cheers
BB

While on this topic, is it okay to leave 'out of date' liquid yeasts in the back of the fridge (say for 6 months or so) before kicking them to life with a starter, or should you culture them up straight away and put the resulting starters in the fridge for keeping?

Cheers

ToG

 

[BoilerBoy]

Re: what to pitch, if your starter is active, don't throw the liquid away, because it will contain a large amount of the active yeast. If the starter has stopped, you can refridgerate to drop all the yeast out of suspension, then pour the clear beer off the top (taste it), then pour the slurry into the brew. When stepping up your starters, there's no need to pour off the liquid - as you should be stepping up when the yeast is most active (and therefore in suspension, and if you pour off the liquid, you'll lose a lot of active yeast).

That's pretty much as I do, I make my starters using generic homebrand extract which I don't really want in my final beer, so I refridgerate the starter the day before and take it out on brew day and pour off the spent starter wort.
When the new wort is chilled I put about a litre in with the yeast wait 4-6 hours until high activity is visible and then pitch.

BB

 

[BoilerBoy]

While on this topic, is it okay to leave 'out of date' liquid yeasts in the back of the fridge (say for 6 months or so) before kicking them to life with a starter, or should you culture them up straight away and put the resulting starters in the fridge for keeping?

Cheers

ToG

I have kept yeasts quite successfully under boiled water for 6 months and longer in the fridge and then recultured without a problem, but it hasn't always worked!!!! :unsure:
It always pays to smell and taste the starter just to check all is fine.

Cheers
BB

 

[WitWonder]

You're right - the activator packs have enough yeasties for a 22L batch. If you're using the activators, there's no need for a starter. Most of us who use starters are trying to step up from a smaller amount of yeast (e.g. from a slant, from a White Labs tube, or from a Wyeast propogator). If using the activator for a 40L batch, I would pour straight into a 1-2L starter, no need to step up slowly.

The other thing that starters do is prove that your yeast are alive - but the smack pack activator will also tell you that once it has swollen up.

Re: what to pitch, if your starter is active, don't throw the liquid away, because it will contain a large amount of the active yeast. If the starter has stopped, you can refridgerate to drop all the yeast out of suspension, then pour the clear beer off the top (taste it), then pour the slurry into the brew. When stepping up your starters, there's no need to pour off the liquid - as you should be stepping up when the yeast is most active (and therefore in suspension, and if you pour off the liquid, you'll lose a lot of active yeast).

Thanks Ben, that's great. Clears it up for me.

 

[NeilArge]

I have kept yeasts quite successfully under boiled water for 6 months and longer in the fridge and then recultured without a problem, but it hasn't always worked!!!! :unsure:
It always pays to smell and taste the starter just to check all is fine.

Cheers
BB

Cheers BB - good advice.

 

[mika]

Even Whitelab tubes are OK to pitch in your average sized beer. You'll find once the gravity goes above 1060 or if you're fermenting a lager, that the standard pitch is going to come up short.

The starter step size is to encourage the best yeast growth, if you don't step up by the recommended volumes the increase in cells will be negligble as they fight for available nutrients/food.

I split a WYeast pack ~6ways because I don't want to pay $14 a batch for yeast. A 6 way split brings it back to ~$3-4 a pitch (extra cost of DME and Storage containers) which I'm happy with. I've got some yeast in the fridge that's been in there for better than 6months, it's slow to crank the starter, but as long as you wait for it to wake up properly it appears to be fine. I pitched a couple that hadn't woken completely and they started off fine, but stalled out towards the end of the ferment. Though I tend to think that some decent oxygenation may have helped this out.

 

[Doogiechap]

I have kept yeasts quite successfully under boiled water for 6 months and longer in the fridge and then recultured without a problem, but it hasn't always worked!!!! :unsure:
It always pays to smell and taste the starter just to check all is fine.

Cheers
BB

Just a thought BB,
I am nearly at the stage of splitting my Wyeast paks like Mika but intend storing the yeast under saline. I read this comment from Whistling Jack and feel the yeast's integrity will benefit.
Cheers
Doug

 

[BoilerBoy]

Just a thought BB,
I am nearly at the stage of splitting my Wyeast paks like Mika but intend storing the yeast under saline. I read this comment from Whistling Jack and feel the yeast's integrity will benefit.
Cheers
Doug

Cheers Doogiechap,
thats some very interesting information.

BB

 

[Sprungmonkey]

The starter step size is to encourage the best yeast growth, if you don't step up by the recommended volumes the increase in cells will be negligble as they fight for available nutrients/food.

Not sure if I really understand the whole stepping up theory yet. I am fairly new to making up and using slants and step up 10 fold (as recommended).

If you don't step up, how then are yeast cells fighting for available food/nutrients. If you add 1ml of yeast to 2 litres of starter there will be less competition to food/nutrients than adding it to 10ml (10fold) - right?

Im not saying stepping up is the wrong thing to do, as I myself are doing it and it seems to work well. I just don't understand the theory. Can anyone shed some light?

 

[hockadays]

If you have too much food for the yeasties they will get lazy and not perform well either. You want the fittest yeast possible and the right amount for the job.

 

[BoilerBoy]

Not sure if I really understand the whole stepping up theory yet. I am fairly new to making up and using slants and step up 10 fold (as recommended).

If you don't step up, how then are yeast cells fighting for available food/nutrients. If you add 1ml of yeast to 2 litres of starter there will be less competition to food/nutrients than adding it to 10ml (10fold) - right?

Im not saying stepping up is the wrong thing to do, as I myself are doing it and it seems to work well. I just don't understand the theory. Can anyone shed some light?

Keep in mind that yeast numbers when pitched into the wort become important to reach FG, because though there would be an abundance of food available for small yeast numbers in your average batch size the bi product alcohol they produce is not an environment they actually enjoy.
As the alcohol increases they become lazy and sluggish and towards the end of fermentation it his here that your healthy yeast numbers count.
In starter wort your trying to make yeast you dont want them starving for nutrients by getting a FG your feeding them enough to breed, in the final brew your making beer which is why (as I understand it h34r: ) a healthy up and firing starter is important.
Cheers,
BB

 

[Stuster]

The other issue with adding a small amount of yeast to a large amount of wort is contamination. Unless you are working in lab conditions, there will be some contamination of your wort. The production of alcohol, lowering of pH etc by the yeast will tend to kill/slow down the bacterial growth but if you put a small amount of yeast in lots of growth medium you're more likely to get noticeable contamination.

 

[BoilerBoy]

The other issue with adding a small amount of yeast to a large amount of wort is contamination. Unless you are working in lab conditions, there will be some contamination of your wort. The production of alcohol, lowering of pH etc by the yeast will tend to kill/slow down the bacterial growth but if you put a small amount of yeast in lots of growth medium you're more likely to get noticeable contamination.

I found that out early on in my first attempts at reculturing yeast a few years back, It was Mt Goat yeast from 1 bottle into a litre of starter wort, after 1 week little evidence of activity and then when it happened it was smeeling pretty aweful.

I now start with 100-200ml and build up from there.
BB

 

[mika]

Quick search with Google and I think this page answers the volume question...if not, I've muffed the link <_<

Linky

 

[Sprungmonkey]

The other issue with adding a small amount of yeast to a large amount of wort is contamination. Unless you are working in lab conditions, there will be some contamination of your wort. The production of alcohol, lowering of pH etc by the yeast will tend to kill/slow down the bacterial growth but if you put a small amount of yeast in lots of growth medium you're more likely to get noticeable contamination.

Donno if the not stepping up actually causes contamination. If you have spoilage organisms they can enter the wort at any time with poor technique. Infact there is probably more chance of contamination when stepping up due to more equipment used.

 

[Sprungmonkey]

Mika - Thanks that makes a bit more sense