Lion introduces "Tap King" - party keg / growlers

[Beerisyummy]

I've done a bit of searching on the air rifle forums for info on this.
Years ago I had a Crossman pistol that I modded to take 8g cartridges from the supermarket, so I'm sure it can't be that hard to do.

The 8g has a shorter 8.6mm neck compared to a 7.5mm neck on the 16g.
a slight mod to the TK collar should work.

Unfortunately, I'm away and can't get into the man cave until tomorrow.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I have found there is a fine line between getting the 8g bulb up high enough and being too high. It has to be high enough that the bulb pierces but not too high and still seal the collar. Takes a bit of trial and error but can find the right combination. There was a post on 8g bulbs on here using a number of 5c coins as packing.

I will try for another O ring for the 8g bulbs at some stage today or tomorrow. I would go 12's but I cannot source locally. May get to the point where I just get some 12's over the net, but I still have some 8's left to try and would like to keep my TK un-modded as much as possible (severe lack of fridge real estate)!

 

[Beerisyummy]

I have found there is a fine line between getting the 8g bulb up high enough and being too high. It has to be high enough that the bulb pierces but not too high and still seal the collar. Takes a bit of trial and error but can find the right combination. There was a post on 8g bulbs on here using a number of 5c coins as packing.

I will try for another O ring for the 8g bulbs at some stage today or tomorrow. I would go 12's but I cannot source locally. May get to the point where I just get some 12's over the net, but I still have some 8's left to try and would like to keep my TK un-modded as much as possible (severe lack of fridge real estate)!

Hi HJ,

I just thought we should move this specific topic elsewhere. http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/75424-using-8g-co2-soda-bulbs-in-your-tap-king/

It's getting too hard to find the posts on using 8g cartridges within the 25+ pages in this thread.

I'm pretty keen to get back home and start working on a way to use the 8g cartridges easily.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Valid point BiY. Is getting a pretty big thread now with lots of useful suggestions and solutions.

 

[Adr_0]

Sorry guys, long time no post...

I'm onto my second brew in the TK bottles now and loving it so far. I've had no problem naturally carbonating as per you would for bottling into tallies. I've actually got a second TK head so as to have two different brews "on tap" at once. Better still, quite a few mates and colleagues have got onto the TK and as such my bottle collection is going gang busters.

As for CO2 cartridges, I'm using the Mosa 12g from ezychargers and they work perfectly.

I've done exactly this with about 6 bottles today. I totally drained out about 4 x XXXX by sticking the tap nozzle (normally on the outside) straight into the bottom middle outlet on the bottle for a little while, then turning upside down to vent out all the gas. Then just crack the lid. Fairly low risk as we are putting on a bit of the pils for Riverfire.

Another two I've disassembled and used the Ezychargers 12g, carefully. Seem to fit like a glove, and even have the same neck profile as the TK 12g. Fingers crossed.

I've noticed this as well. It's one of the reasons I don't like PET bottles. Someone once described pet bottles to me as lots of tightly packed layers of glad wrap.

The last two I bought had a thin layer peel off when I pulled the labels back.

Then again, I can never quite get the smell out of my fermenters either.

An earlier thread said they have a layer of nylon on the inside to remain fairly inert, so not sure why this is and I haven't had this problem. Otherwise, you can throw some weak bleach in, rinse, then Starsan and you should not have an issue.

I'm sure you've all figured it out by now, but yes I measured the pressure on the regs of a couple of my bottles. I drained out the swill as per the above, then refilled with water (just to reduce the headspace a bit) and turned upside down. Was 80kPag using two different gauges and two different bottles, which lines up fairly squarely at 11psi. Sure enough, at 3°C this is 2.5vol of CO2 which has been reported elsewhere for these beers and would appear to match the carbonation of the beer itself which should give the most consistency.

So, I carbonated the same way - dextrose of around 14.5g (my beer was lagering) and fingers thoroughly crossed. A note on this:
1. If you carbonate to 3-4 vol CO2, you will probably get inconsistent pours from both the pressure changing and having too much pressure and so too much velocity for the little bit of tube you have. I think we should consider line balancing on these if we push up this high but I haven't really looked into it. You will slowly lose carbonation in your beer over a few days as you drain it and as it returns to the 2.5vol or so set by the regulator.
2. If you carbonate at 1.5-2 vol CO2, you will probably initially have a really good pour but you will probably end up running out 2/3 of the way through as you are using additional CO2 to keep everything at 2.5vol (as set by the regulator). So that's a little risky IMO.

Maybe the trick is to see if we can adjust the regulator in the head? I might have a play next weekend. I would love the flexibility of having a wheat beer on tap (one head set to a higher pressure) but this will probably need a longer bit of tube to work. Maybe we just drink it within 2 hrs?

I'm also going to look into packs of o-rings and see which sizes work.

 

[Beerisyummy]

An earlier thread said they have a layer of nylon on the inside to remain fairly inert, so not sure why this is and I haven't had this problem. Otherwise, you can throw some weak bleach in, rinse, then Starsan and you should not have an issue.



Maybe the trick is to see if we can adjust the regulator in the head? I might have a play next weekend. I would love the flexibility of having a wheat beer on tap (one head set to a higher pressure) but this will probably need a longer bit of tube to work. Maybe we just drink it within 2 hrs?

Hi Adr_O,

I did hear about the nylon part and figured it was added for strength in such a large thin bottle. You can see it's effect on the surface of the bottle where it makes it go all wavy.

The regulator can be adjusted pretty easily, and to be quite honest, I think it is better to dial it right down for the pour and then turn it back up in between sessions.

This is the first pour out of a bottle with the regulator dialled down by 2/3 turns. You don't need the top of the keg attached but a couple of brackets would eliminate the need for it all together.


Just be warned that the top of the regulator only has two and a half turns in it before the top comes off. From memory at least.

 

[carpedaym]

Hey fellas, I've joined club TK and I have some questions. I have actually given all 25 pages a pretty decent skim, so apologies if I missed something.

1. The box says beer stays fresh for 21 days. What do they mean by this? If there's only CO2 going in it's not oxidizing. Will the CO2 run flat and stop pressuring somehow? Is this why people have suggested dialling down the reg while it's sitting around and only cranking it back on to pour?

I seem to be in the minority of people who are concerned with the EzyCharger representative's response saying their 12g cartridges are not food safe. I'm trying to investigate more into this, but none-the-less am curious by alternative cartridge sized options, given finewhip's 12g is pretty darned expensive and on backorder only. Not having a mini-regulator already, I'm wondering the following...

2. Could the stock TK regulator be hooked up directly to an external 16g cartridge? (Or even the 330g soda-stream? I'm new to all this kegging/co2 jazz so forgive my ignorance about regulators and pressure.)

Thanks, and cheers to the tinkerers for doing the all the guinea pig work!

 

[Beerisyummy]

1. The box says beer stays fresh for 21 days. What do they mean by this? If there's only CO2 going in it's not oxidizing. Will the CO2 run flat and stop pressuring somehow? Is this why people have suggested dialling down the reg while it's sitting around and only cranking it back on to pour?

2. Could the stock TK regulator be hooked up directly to an external 16g cartridge? (Or even the 330g soda-stream? I'm new to all this kegging/co2 jazz so forgive my ignorance about regulators and pressure.)

1. 21 days.
I figure there is a lack of sanitation in the head of the CO2 cartridge that can't be avoided, the bottles are PET/Nylon which will not hold pressure indefinitely and they want you to drink the beer.

2. Stock regulator.
Given that the stock regulator is a really cheap plastic jobby I would not recommend this. You can pierce an 8g cartridge in your hand without too much trouble. Don't try this at home and definitely don't try this with a 330g bottle. Lot's more potential energy to blow your face off.

Do not turn the stock reg down in between pours. You will let the beer go flat. Turn it down 1/3 ( I know I said 2/3 before) while pouring and then crank it back up. This works for me and doesn't relate to any information I've read on balancing a keg system.

 

[carpedaym]

Thanks for correcting me, I must have misread the earlier instructions.

 

[Beerisyummy]

Thanks for correcting me, I must have misread the earlier instructions.

No probs! I've posted a few different methods and I'm still experimenting.

The next problem I've encountered with the TK is that the naturally carbed beer has too much sediment. I don't mind but it needs to please the average punter.

Who has force carbonated in the bottle?

 

[Mattwa]

The next problem I've encountered with the TK is that the naturally carbed beer has too much sediment. I don't mind but it needs to please the average punter.

I'm thinking a little rubber grommet around the end of the beer tube might solve this by holding the tube end a little bit above the sediment.

Got started on a sodastream setup last night. I'll post pics when I'm done.

 

[greg52]

i normally keg my beer but after fermentation has completed i put the 23L into a food grade jerry can
and then put in the fridge for about a week.( ppl call it a clearing tube ) then i keg 19L and then force carbonate it....then with what's left over i sometimes bottle.
the beer...after it has been carbinated (2 weeks) i have no sediment in my bottles.this will be the procedure i will follow
to fill my TK keg and i should have no or very little sediment
hope this helps

 

[Adr_0]

Hi guys,

I just took Beerisyummy's starting point and decided to record the pressure by adjusting the regulator.

I have butchered my head a fair bit, so hacking it up further was no issue. I basically cut off the retaining latch, leaving the adjuster cap free to rotate. This should probably be hot-glued in place if you wish to set up a head for lagers/pale ales and one for English beers.

So, we have the following:

+0.25 turn - 100kPag
0 turn - 78kPag
-0.25 turn - 60kPag
-0.5 turn - ~45kPag
-1 turn - 20kPag

At 3°C serving temp, we have the following:
+0.25 turn - 100kPag --> 2.8volCO2
0 turn - 78kPag --> 2.5
-0.25 turn - 60kPag --> 2.3
-0.5 turn - ~45kPag - 2.1vol
-1 turn - 20kPag --> 1.7vol CO2

Two things I'm going to next find out: if it's comfortable in the 3-3.5vol range for wheats, etc; and if further restriction needs to be put in the little hose bit on the tap (e.g. 3mm tube) to slow it down at higher carbonation. Even at the existing carbonation it might help?

PS - not sure what the maximum pressure of these units would be. The regulator will obviously be ok, and pretty sure the bottles would be fine with a couple of hundred kPag, but not sure if there is a weak spot somewhere.

Enjoy...

 

[Beerisyummy]

Enjoy...

Thanks for posting your results Adro. Really helpful.

I've also wondered about adding a restriction to the tap in order to get a better pour. It really seems to pour a better glass of beer if you turn it down by a 3rd while pouring and then crank it back up immediately afterwards.

I guess it's time to do another wheat beer and see how she goes. :icon_drool2:

 

[Adr_0]

Thanks for posting your results Adro. Really helpful.

I've also wondered about adding a restriction to the tap in order to get a better pour. It really seems to pour a better glass of beer if you turn it down by a 3rd while pouring and then crank it back up immediately afterwards.

I guess it's time to do another wheat beer and see how she goes. :icon_drool2:

I will have a bit of a play and see what options are on Friday. There is all of the inner tube and also the last bit. Just have to find something food-gradey that won't make the beer taste like plastic after pickling for 4-8 weeks if the internal tube is lined with another tube.

 

[Bentnose]

Don't believe this has been mentioned but I according to Promash, to get 2.5 volumes of CO2 you'll need 21g of priming sugar in 3.2L.

 

[Adr_0]

Don't believe this has been mentioned but I according to Promash, to get 2.5 volumes of CO2 you'll need 21g of priming sugar in 3.2L.

That's probably about right for ~20°C, but will of course depend on temperature of the beer when you close the lid on the bottle (CO2 dissolved in the beer). I threw 14g in for a pils that had been lagering at 1°C as more CO2 was probably dissolved in the beer.

As has been shown above, there is a lot of flexibility to run slightly lower if you want to. The regulator permits you to do this, and it probably suits the pourer spout thingy to come out slightly slower (less foam). So don't be afraid of knocking off half a turn and only carbing to 2.1-2.3.

 

[Bentnose]

Should have qualified that, it is 21g of priming sugar at 20°C, at 1°C it is 10.6g.

 

[JustAdam]

Also, I plan to use a mini reg (kegking) for an external gas bottle. I bought a MFL to 6mm barb from ebay, but it didn't fit the reg. Apparently there is a difference in co2/o2 1/4in MFL fittings. Sunbury Homebrew Supplies set me up with a 6mm barb that screwed directly into the reg. As I only plan to use that reg for TK, that setup should be fine.

Update to this, the barbed fitting to get to replace the MFL on the mini regulator is a 1/8 BSP male to 6mm tail. Apparently it is an air compressor part, so you can pick it up from a tool store that deals with them for a couple of bucks, or, so I am told from Autobarn for $7.

 

[Kudzu]

That's probably about right for ~20°C, but will of course depend on temperature of the beer when you close the lid on the bottle (CO2 dissolved in the beer). I threw 14g in for a pils that had been lagering at 1°C as more CO2 was probably dissolved in the beer.

As has been shown above, there is a lot of flexibility to run slightly lower if you want to. The regulator permits you to do this, and it probably suits the pourer spout thingy to come out slightly slower (less foam). So don't be afraid of knocking off half a turn and only carbing to 2.1-2.3.

Wait a second, I thought the temperature variable in priming calculations was based on max temperature once primary is complete (or near complete).

i.e. if I finish fermenting an ale at 18C then chill to 1C, I still need to base my calculation on 18C as simply chilling the beer won't cause CO2 to be dissolved (unless it's under pressure).

Am I missing something?