Limitations Of Biab

[LexP]

BIAB challenge .. you name it and I'll brew it with no more than a minor variation to the stock BIAB method.

Thirsty

Lambic?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Thanks for the replies guys.
I think I've been convinced that BIAB is the way to go.

When I talk about BIAB I am talking about the traditional 1 vessel no sparge method.
However I know that many people are using dunk sparging in their BIAB process these days.
Most posts above have confirmed that just about any style is possible with BIAB.
Is this using the traditional no sparge method, or with dunk sparge?
As I plan to build a dedicated rig, I would like to do it right.
I am just wondering if I should consider adding another vessel and burner for dunk sparging?
The thing is, if I go with 2 vessels whats one more for traditional 3 V system.

Is dunk sparging really neccesary?
I do plan to brew some heavy beers like stouts and strong belgian ales if this helps.
Cheers
Tim

Hey Tim -

I use stock BIAB for almost everything. Some of the esoteric stuff you will need a variation.

So for instance.. you want to do a decoction? Well, no matter whether you 3V or BIAB, you are going to have to have another pot and another heat source (ie big saucepan on the stove). If you do a really big beer and you run out of room in your brewpot - you either shrug and pick another beer, or you can do a workaround that involves dunk (or other) sparging. You need another container, but you dont need another "pot". A cheap plastic storer will do in a pinch. Keep your crap in it and on the day you discover you want to brew 45L of 1.115 barleywine... empty the crap out of it and use it as a dunk sparge vessel. Or do a re-itterated mash if you really dont want to use another vessel.

That sort of thing. 98% of beers you will be fine in your one pot with no sparge.

Mind you - I am not trying to talk you out of a 3V system (I have one) but you asked about BIAB limitations.. and I really don't think there are any significant ones. Plus with space limitations I think that BIAB might be a genuinely better solution for you.

Cheers

TB

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Lambic?

Done it .. or, well, not a lambic really I suppose. But if I can do a berlinerweiss I can do a lambic.

So ner :lol:

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

I used to DunkSparge(tm) religiously. I even claim credit for the term. But, I stopped doing it a while ago for a couple of reasons.

DunkSparging is extra pfaffing about. A lot of extra pfaffing about. I don't have an issue if you want to, but my brew days are nicer without it. I did a Two-Brew day recently and had everything cleaned up and put away in time to watch M*A*S*H with a nice cold beer in hand.

I've stopped focusing on extraction efficiency and started focusing on beer quality and brewhouse efficiency. The first is how many sugar molecules you can wring out of your grain. The second is (should be) self-explanatory and the third is about how much beer you get in your mouth from a given amount of grain and is affected by all sorts of things such as how much doesn't make it from the kettle into the fermenter and how much of that doesn't make it into the keg, etc, etc.

Sure, work out the best balance between extraction efficiency and effort (etc) but do not let it be your driving force if you want to make the best beer you can (regardless of how many vessels you have to wash). Achieving consistent brewhouse efficiency is much more rewarding in my book.

 

[peas_and_corn]

For some reason I read that as 'DrunkSparge' the first time around.

 

[reviled]

For some reason I read that as 'DrunkSparge' the first time around.

That method only increases percieved efficiency :lol:

 

[Kai]

But you can't do a partigyle or a decoction without extra vessels no matter which method of brewing you use.. so the fact that you need em for BIAB is a nil all draw.

As spills said, double batches are no harder than singles - except that lager volumes take longer to heat up - as they do in any system. Aside from that its the same, just more of it.

I have tried, for quite a while now to think of a beer style or variation of technique (like partigyle or decoction or cereal mashing) that I couldn't brew BIAB... I can't. If you can think of one... let me know and I will give it a crack.

BIAB challenge .. you name it and I'll brew it with no more than a minor variation to the stock BIAB method.

Thirsty

- Decoctions happen in the kettle (the second vessel of a 3 vessel system).
- Double batches, as in two brews, happen a lot quicker on a "traditional" setup.
- Partigyle small beer wort can be held in the mash tun, in a fermenter, in the HLT (and even boiled there depending on the setup).

So no you do not need extra vessels for these processes, unlike BIAB.

 

[PistolPatch]

Double batches, as in two brews, happen a lot quicker on a "traditional" setup.

Ah but Master Kai, in the traditional system you have three vessels and two heat sources. I have two BIAB set-ups (two kwttles and two burners) so I can actually do 2 brews simultaneously and am still one vessel short. For you to match this on a traditional rig you would need two rigs i.e. 6 vessels and 4 burners. You'll want a big garage for that!!!

 

[Darren]

Ah but Master Kai, in the traditional system you have three vessels and two heat sources. I have two BIAB set-ups (two kwttles and two burners) so I can actually do 2 brews simultaneously and am still one vessel short. For you to match this on a traditional rig you would need two rigs i.e. 6 vessels and 4 burners. You'll want a big garage for that!!!

Ah PP,

Master Kai will end up with two far superior beers than yours :icon_cheers:

Darren

 

[joecast]

- Decoctions happen in the kettle (the second vessel of a 3 vessel system).

did a decoction in a small pot on the stove while the mash was going. not saying it was as effective as a traditional system, but it can be done.
joe

 

[katzke]

- Decoctions happen in the kettle (the second vessel of a 3 vessel system).

Defining a traditional system as one with a boil kettle that has at least a valve and some kind of hop screen in it. I see a decoction as a pain to do in the boil kettle. The amount you are boiling is relatively small, compared to a single batch boil, and you need to get it all out and back in the mash.

Much easier to just get the soup pot from the kitchen regardless of what system you brew on.

- Double batches, as in two brews, happen a lot quicker on a "traditional" setup.

Not sure how you can say a double batch is faster on a traditional system. Given the proper sized kettle and heat source BIAB will be faster because there is no need to wait for the sparge.

 

[peas_and_corn]

OK, I'm actually asking this because I'm interested in the answer, how exactly do BIAB brewers sparge?

 

[katzke]

OK, I'm actually asking this because I'm interested in the answer, how exactly do BIAB brewers sparge?

The original BIAB is a full volume no-sparge method of brewing. The grain is simply removed from the hot wort by lifting the bag out. The bag can be left hanging over the brew kettle while it drains, put in a bucket, or actually squeezed to remove extra wort from the grain. If it is put in a bucket any wort that drains is added back in to the boil.

Some people have decided to add a sparge step but I have no idea why. The most common seems to be dunking the bag in hot water in a bucket or second kettle. This requires one to lift the bag and heat extra water but some have decided it is worth the effort. I am happy with 75% efficiency so see no need to complicate the very simple system that BIAB is.

 

[reviled]

The original BIAB is a full volume no-sparge method of brewing. The grain is simply removed from the hot wort by lifting the bag out. The bag can be left hanging over the brew kettle while it drains, put in a bucket, or actually squeezed to remove extra wort from the grain. If it is put in a bucket any wort that drains is added back in to the boil.

Some people have decided to add a sparge step but I have no idea why. The most common seems to be dunking the bag in hot water in a bucket or second kettle. This requires one to lift the bag and heat extra water but some have decided it is worth the effort. I am happy with 75% efficiency so see no need to complicate the very simple system that BIAB is.

I sparge to acheive consistency across a wide range of grain bills, and to add a recirculating step which, combined with adjusting mash pH seems to result in my beer clearing in the keg a bit quicker, also, I only have a 2 ring burner so bringing up to mash out temp is a painfull process for me, so the sparge step brings me back up to around 75% eff which im happy with, im sure it would be more if I got to mash out temp, and sparged, but meh...

And P&C, I take my bag out, line an old bucket fermenter with it and do a mini batch sparge with around 6-10L of water at 78*c, then recirculate it a couple of times before adding to the kettle...

By sparging it also means I can do a 20Litre 1080 or maybe more beer in my 30 litre pot :icon_cheers:

 

[Thirsty Boy]

hang on hang on -

This isn't supposed to be a dick size competition. Its not about which is better, 3V, 4V or BIAB - its about whether BIAB is appropriate for the OP's situation and whether he is going to suffer any limitations in process by going BIAB, that he would avoid by straight up going with a multi vessel system.

Lets not wave our junk about the place and look for applause. Lets try to stick at least reasonably to simple facts.

Yes, you can decoct in your kettle, most homebrewers I know don't, because the volumes are much smaller, they use a separate pot - But technically... there you go. If you want to do a lot of decoctions, you will need two pots, and you already have that if you have a multi vessel system.

For partigyle - I actually cant see how you can hold the wort in the mash tun or HLT - you are still using both?? The mash tun has.. well, the mash in it. unless you are using a seperate lauter tun? and the HLT has sparge liquor in it. In any case, you could use a fermenter as a holding vessel.. you can do that in BIAB as well. So a nil all draw again - you probably need a bit of extra kit, which you probably have lying around anyway, to do this with either method.

As for speed in a double batch - I have done this on both a BIAB and on my 3V systems. Here's a comparison.
*On the 3V it takes longer to heat strike water, longer to raise to mashout, longer to lauter, longer to bring to the boil (but not a lot)...
*In BIAB it takes longer to heat strike water, longer to raise to mashout, lautering takes the same as with a single, longer to bring to the boil

I don't believe that either method has a particular time advantage in comparing single batch brewing to double batch brewing. It takes a bit longer either way. Mind you - in my experience a BIAB brew day is a shorter brewday to begin with.

Its not a matter of which is better really -

- Multi V systems can make any beer you want, maybe you'll need a bit of extra gear to use an alternative sort of method.
- BIAB systems can make any beer you want, maybe you'll need a bit of extra gear to use an alternative sort of method.

I don't see where a "better or worse" argument comes into it. Its just silly.

The questions are - Which is more appropriate for your situation? Which method appeals to you the most?

A prospective brewer needs to answer those questions.. then they have their answer.

Either way is a great choice and they will be able to brew fantastic, All Grain, hand made beer without significant limitations no matter which way they go.

Thirsty

(zip)

edit - spelling

 

[katzke]

I sparge to acheive consistency across a wide range of grain bills, and to add a recirculating step which, combined with adjusting mash pH seems to result in my beer clearing in the keg a bit quicker, also, I only have a 2 ring burner so bringing up to mash out temp is a painfull process for me, so the sparge step brings me back up to around 75% eff which im happy with, im sure it would be more if I got to mash out temp, and sparged, but meh...

And P&C, I take my bag out, line an old bucket fermenter with it and do a mini batch sparge with around 6-10L of water at 78*c, then recirculate it a couple of times before adding to the kettle...

By sparging it also means I can do a 20Litre 1080 or maybe more beer in my 30 litre pot :icon_cheers:

Well see now I know a few reasons why to sparge a BIAB brew. A small kettle and a wimpy heat source. Just goes to show that it is a very versatile system for brewers to use. No need for special equipment over what one used for extract brews. A bit of scrounging around the brew closet and you should have every thing you need. Except the bag and they can be made or purchased in Australia.

 

[mje1980]

hang on hang on -

This isn't supposed to be a dick size competition. Its not about which is better, 3V, 4V or BIAB - its about whether BIAB is appropriate for the OP's situation and whether he is going to suffer any limitations in process by going BIAB, that he would avoid by straight up going with a multi vessel system.

Lets not wave our junk about the place and look for applause. Lets try to stick at least reasonably to simple facts.

Yes, you can decoct in your kettle, most homebrewers I know don't, because the volumes are much smaller, they use a separate pot - But technically... there you go. If you want to do a lot of decoctions, you will need two pots, and you already have that if you have a multi vessel system.

For partigyle - I actually cant see how you can hold the wort in the mash tun or HLT - you are still using both?? The mash tun has.. well, the mash in it. unless you are using a seperate lauter tun? and the HLT has sparge liquor in it. In any case, you could use a fermenter as a holding vessel.. you can do that in BIAB as well. So a nil all draw again - you probably need a bit of extra kit, which you probably have lying around anyway, to do this with either method.

As for speed in a double batch - I have done this on both a BIAB and on my 3V systems. Here's a comparison.
*On the 3V it takes longer to heat strike water, longer to raise to mashout, longer to lauter, longer to bring to the boil (but not a lot)...
*In BIAB it takes longer to heat strike water, longer to raise to mashout, lautering takes the same as with a single, longer to bring to the boil

I don't believe that either method has a particular time advantage in comparing single batch brewing to double batch brewing. It takes a bit longer either way. Mind you - in my experience a BIAB brew day is a shorter brewday to begin with.

Its not a matter of which is better really -

- Multi V systems can make any beer you want, maybe you'll need a bit of extra gear to use an alternative sort of method.
- BIAB systems can make any beer you want, maybe you'll need a bit of extra gear to use an alternative sort of method.

I don't see where a "better or worse" argument comes into it. Its just silly.

The questions are - Which is more appropriate for your situation? Which method appeals to you the most?

A prospective brewer needs to answer those questions.. then they have their answer.

Either way is a great choice and they will be able to brew fantastic, All Grain, hand made beer without significant limitations no matter which way they go.

Thirsty

(zip)

edit - spelling

Excellent post mate. WIth both ways, you're doing the same basic steps, just in different ways. I just found out another AHB member lives 4 doors down, and is settiung up for BIAB. I do the 3v method, can't wait to check it out, and if i think its quicker and easier, i may go that way. I love making beer, but the quicker and easier, the better for me.

Cheers

 

[Kai]

Ah but Master Kai, in the traditional system you have three vessels and two heat sources. I have two BIAB set-ups (two kwttles and two burners) so I can actually do 2 brews simultaneously and am still one vessel short. For you to match this on a traditional rig you would need two rigs i.e. 6 vessels and 4 burners. You'll want a big garage for that!!!

True, Pat. But I was just comparing one BIAB setup to one 3-vessel system.

 

[Kai]

joe & katzke; fair point, fair point. I should have said decoctions CAN happen in the kettle, not do. Was thinking of small stockpots as the other common option if the kettle isn't suitable, I know I've almost always had a few small cheap ones on hand. I'd venture there not much more expensive than a bag

 

[Kai]

hang on hang on -

This isn't supposed to be a dick size competition. Its not about which is better, 3V, 4V or BIAB - its about whether BIAB is appropriate for the OP's situation and whether he is going to suffer any limitations in process by going BIAB, that he would avoid by straight up going with a multi vessel system.

Lets not wave our junk about the place and look for applause. Lets try to stick at least reasonably to simple facts.

Mate you're the one who called it a "nil all draw". I'm not measuring anything or claiming one method is better than the other, I'm disagreeing with a couple things you wrote.

Yes, you can decoct in your kettle, most homebrewers I know don't, because the volumes are much smaller, they use a separate pot - But technically... there you go. If you want to do a lot of decoctions, you will need two pots, and you already have that if you have a multi vessel system.

Yeah, cheap shop stock pots are cheap and good for decoctions if the dedicated kettle is unsuitable. You don't need a separate burner though, as you stated earlier.

For partigyle - I actually cant see how you can hold the wort in the mash tun or HLT - you are still using both?? The mash tun has.. well, the mash in it. unless you are using a seperate lauter tun? and the HLT has sparge liquor in it. In any case, you could use a fermenter as a holding vessel.. you can do that in BIAB as well. So a nil all draw again - you probably need a bit of extra kit, which you probably have lying around anyway, to do this with either method.

Once the first wort is in the kettle, small beer wort can stay in the mash and be lautered out after the first boil is complete with no real detriment to quality.

Alternatively once the first wort is in the kettle, sparge liquor can be added as a batch sparge then second wort run straight back into the now-empty HLT where it can be boiled if the vessel is suitable.

As for speed in a double batch - I have done this on both a BIAB and on my 3V systems. Here's a comparison.
*On the 3V it takes longer to heat strike water, longer to raise to mashout, longer to lauter, longer to bring to the boil (but not a lot)...
*In BIAB it takes longer to heat strike water, longer to raise to mashout, lautering takes the same as with a single, longer to bring to the boil

I don't believe that either method has a particular time advantage in comparing single batch brewing to double batch brewing. It takes a bit longer either way. Mind you - in my experience a BIAB brew day is a shorter brewday to begin with.

Do you understand I meant two separate batches, not a batch double in volume? So on a three vessel system it's second mash in the tun shortly after runoff is complete, in BIAB it's second brew in when first brew is completely finished. That's a big difference in time (unless you have two BIAB systems, eh Pat).