Limitations Of Biab

[puffer555]

This is my first post on this forum so go easy on me guys.
I have been lurking around on AHB for about 6 months now.
Been doing extract brews on and off for the last 15 years, but I am ready to make the plunge into all grain.

I am now tossing up how I should set up my brewery.
My general philosphy on life is to do things right the first time.
In other words, I would prefer not to build something with the plan of upgrading later.
You generally save time and money this way, as long as you make informed decisions in the first place.

Anyway, I am either tossing up between the traditional 3 vessel system, or a dedicated BIAB rig.
I know many people on here do BIAB and have had good success with it.

My question is, what are the limitations of BIAB?
What cant I brew on a BIAB system?
In the reading I have done, it seems as though it is harder to brew big beers.
Can you brew a barley wine using BIAB for instance?
Not saying that I want to in the short term, I just want to keep my options open.
Would be interested in your opinions.

Cheers
Tim

 

[reviled]

Welcome Tim :icon_cheers:

It really all depends on what size batches you want to do, and how big a pot you can buy I reckon!!

I happily pump out beers of various ABV levels in my small 30 litre pot, however I am limited to 20ish litre batches, and I have added a sparge step which i find gives me more consistency, it also means that I can do big and small beers with my small pot, so in my eyes, for the little extra effort, its worth it!

Basically youll be able to do normal beers really easily, and every now and then when you do a barley wine you may need to sparge, but thats not really a limitation of BIAB seeing as youll be sparging every beer if youre doing a 3v set up...

So in answer to your question - IMO, no, there are no limitations to the kind of beer, or the quality levels with BIAB over a 3v set up

 

[muckey]

firstly I'll say I haven't BIAB but
the only limitations I see are - volume limited to size of pot and could be a greater reduction in efficiencys vs other systems whenbrewing very high gravity beers

having said that, the BIABers have had excellent success with the many and varied styles they have brewed so a very good system to start with.

if you want to upgrade to a syustem that gives you more volume, you BIAB pot will most likely still be used as part of your upgraded brewery so you wont really waste money by starting with BIAB and who knows you may stick with it because it works

 

[komodo]

After seeing a BIAB demo the other day I can assure you that a BIAB kettle will never be a limitation other than batch size - that said kettle size / tun size / hlt size is always going to be your limitation in 3V setup too.

If you go a 70 - 80L pot for BIAB I would think you'll have heaps of space for high gravity / big grain bill beers (possibly enough for double batches of lower gravity beers BIAB) Plus if you decide to side step to 3V you now already have a large enough kettle for double batches!

If you go 3V straight up and you decide that you want to give BIAB a go then you have "redundant" equipment. If you go BIAB and you decide to go 3V its only a matter of obtaining more gear.

I'm a convert after seeing BIAB in action!

 

[argon]

I'm also looking at doing a double batch using biab. I have a 50L converted keg and I'm keen on doing a Belgian saison with a total grain bill of around 11kgs.

Myself and another new brewer are going to spilt the brew. 22 and a bit kilos seems uncomfortably large for my system. I'm comfortable enough doing a single batch with this much grain.

Has anyone experienced a maximum grain weight for biab. I've also considered bumping up the grain, say by 1.5.

Has anyone done such a big batch and what's the expected max voulme I could extract from my system?

Btw here's my recipe;
7.3kg Belgian Pilsner Malt
2.3kg 10L German Munich malt
1.4kg 4L German Vienna Malt
200g 23L Belgian Aromatic Malt

25g Cascade Pellets 5.2% (60 min)
50g Crystal Pellets 3.5% (10 min.)
30g Saaz Pellets, 3.6% (5 min.)
7g Sweet Orange Peel, dried (5 min.)

Wyeast 3724 - Belgian Saison

Make 1 L starter with 1.020 gravity using dry malt extract
Mash-in with 20 L of water at 61C. Target temp 54C.
Protein rest for 25 minutes.
Step infuse with 10 L boiling water and stir. Target temperature 67C.
Mash for 1 hr.
Skim very thick creamy white hot break prior to first hop addition.
Add 1 tsp rehydrated Irish Moss at the 20 minute mark.

Ferment at 21C for 22 days.
Rack the rest into secondary for 20 days at 21C to 24C
O.G. 1.067
F.G. 1.016
36 IBU

 

[Kai]

The very first thing that pops to my mind, compared to a traditional 3-vessel system, you cannot do double batches anywhere nearly as easily or quickly and you cannot do partigyles at all.

 

[argon]

The very first thing that pops to my mind, compared to a traditional 3-vessel system, you cannot do double batches anywhere nearly as easily or quickly and you cannot do partigyles at all.

Thanks... i expected that i'd not be able to double this particular recipe with the 11kg grain bill. But has anyone else out there reached a maximum weight in BIAB before things get a little too cumbersome?

 

[katzke]

The very first thing that pops to my mind, compared to a traditional 3-vessel system, you cannot do double batches anywhere nearly as easily or quickly and you cannot do partigyles at all.

Missed the thread about the guy that got 3 beers out of one brew did you?

While it is not ideal it can be done and has.

Double batches are only limited by your kettle size just like in traditional systems. With a bit of thought I could do a double batch.

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

I brew Double Batches - enough to fill two cornelius kegs and a bit more - when I feel like giving the liver extra punishment, there's a party (or brewery rebuild) coming up or as a way of introducing someone to grain brewing. The two of us walk away with a Single Batch of fresh wort to do something with.

I can't say how it stacks up against a multi-vessel system but I can say that it takes incrementally longer than a Single Batch, only because it takes longer to get from Temperature A to Temperature B to Temperature C (if you're no-chilling, the time to Temperature D is the same: Overnight). I don't find the weight of the grain to be an issue, but that could be because I plan for it.

Thirsty Boy and I (and probably others) have done a BIAB decoction mash and although it couldn't be done in the one pot and it was a bit of mucking around, it can be done and I can happily say I don't care to do it again.

Partigyle brewing with BIAB would be tricky without extra vessels, but could be done. If you did, you'd be side-stepping the simplicity of the system and making life quite difficult for yourself, I think. I get around that problem by pretending to not want to.

I think that if you're going to spend the majority of your time with simple mash procedures (single infusion, step and ramp all fit into this definition for me) and under 1.080 (or so), there are no substantial limitations. Even exceeding my magic OG number isn't hard, you just have to sacrifice some gas, extraction efficiency or LDME.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

But you can't do a partigyle or a decoction without extra vessels no matter which method of brewing you use.. so the fact that you need em for BIAB is a nil all draw.

As spills said, double batches are no harder than singles - except that lager volumes take longer to heat up - as they do in any system. Aside from that its the same, just more of it.

I have tried, for quite a while now to think of a beer style or variation of technique (like partigyle or decoction or cereal mashing) that I couldn't brew BIAB... I can't. If you can think of one... let me know and I will give it a crack.

BIAB challenge .. you name it and I'll brew it with no more than a minor variation to the stock BIAB method.

Thirsty

 

[Bizier]

I do double batches BIAB and it is a bit of a PITA because I don't have anything I can rig a pulley off where I brew. But BIAB is great for being able to pack it all down and pull it back out again.

I suggest that the next wheat beer I brew, I will use a bunch of rice hulls, as it is hectically heavy with 10kg or so dry weight + god knows how much water.

If I had a place to brew in one spot, I would be three tier without doubt. But, alas, I am in an apartment, so BIAB kicks arse for my needs. I would happily switch if I had the room.

ED: and a warm welcome!

 

[puffer555]

Thanks for the replies guys.
I think I've been convinced that BIAB is the way to go.

When I talk about BIAB I am talking about the traditional 1 vessel no sparge method.
However I know that many people are using dunk sparging in their BIAB process these days.
Most posts above have confirmed that just about any style is possible with BIAB.
Is this using the traditional no sparge method, or with dunk sparge?
As I plan to build a dedicated rig, I would like to do it right.
I am just wondering if I should consider adding another vessel and burner for dunk sparging?
The thing is, if I go with 2 vessels whats one more for traditional 3 V system.

Is dunk sparging really neccesary?
I do plan to brew some heavy beers like stouts and strong belgian ales if this helps.
Cheers
Tim

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

But you can't do a partigyle or a decoction without extra vessels no matter which method of brewing you use.. so the fact that you need em for BIAB is a nil all draw.

As spills said, double batches are no harder than singles - except that lager volumes take longer to heat up - as they do in any system. Aside from that its the same, just more of it.

I have tried, for quite a while now to think of a beer style or variation of technique (like partigyle or decoction or cereal mashing) that I couldn't brew BIAB... I can't. If you can think of one... let me know and I will give it a crack.

BIAB challenge .. you name it and I'll brew it with no more than a minor variation to the stock BIAB method.

Thirsty

Bring on the BIAB Dopple Bock ! I have great faith in BIAB and its instituters, so lets see how it rolls. :icon_cheers:
GB

 

[PistolPatch]

BIAB challenge .. you name it and I'll brew it with no more than a minor variation to the stock BIAB method.

Thirsty

I think that has nailed it.

There are quite a few myths about on BIAB. Efficiency on big beers and double-batches is one that carries through even to the extent of it being listed as a limitation on the BeerSmith website. (I have written to Brad about this and it will get changed in due course.)

A while ago I asked BIAB brewers to send me their figures. The mash efficiency figures are well over 80% and this does not reduce significantly on double-batches despite the theoretical arguments. (I actually can use the same efficiency figure on my single and double-batches.) Dextrinous worts are another myth I have covered before.

One section of the Beersmith article was headed, "Limitations of BIAB." When writing to Brad, I tried to find a limitation to BIAB so his article could easily be re-written. I couldn't find a limitation.

I have 2 x 70lt pots and so now can brew two single or double batches simultaneously on a brew day. This opens up a whole world of possibilities.

A year or two ago I wrote that the only sensible reason I could see for someone starting AG with a three-vessel system is if they could get such a system almost free. Now I would comfortably say that if someone could get such a system for free, they should look at how they could possibly turn it into two BIAB rigs.

I now see traditional brewing as a copy of commercial set-ups and full-volume brewing as a luxury we home brewers can indulge in.

Cheers and best of luck,
Pat

P.S. If you are on the Central Coast, MHB is a retailer in Newcastle who has excellent brewing knowledge, a huge range of stock and will give you one on one advice that is equal to best. He has considerable experience in full-volume brewing and I suggest if he is close to you that you make his acquaintance, decide on your equipment and get him to supply you at the same price as competitors. This will serve you, the brewer, best.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

"Lick my bag" " GB has the best BIAB bags in town" . Quote PP " you idiot " LOL
GB

 

[PistolPatch]

puffer, dunk-sparging is not necessary. In my opinion, it is a waste of time for beginners.

I did do some double-batches recently and utilised the method with very satisfactory results after seeing a very easy way of doing it from one relatively new BIABrewer. But, until I can get some more figures on it from more brewers, I won't know for sure the merits of it and in which situations it should be applied. I don't think it is a thing new brewers should worry about at all. I think it is one of the many, BIAB "add-ons" that can be looked forward to as the BIABrewer's experience develops.

All dunk-sparging will do is increase your efficiency. Basic BIAB efficiency is very good therefore, it is not a thing to worry about now.

 

[PistolPatch]

"Lick my bag" " GB has the best BIAB bags in town" . Quote PP " you idiot " LOL
GB

LOL!

And puffer, Gryphon is another full-volume friendly retailer with a massive wealth of brewing knowledge/education/awards. A hugely, knowledgeable guy with the funniest/driest sense of humour ever.

I gave him the BIAB bag design and now he thinks he owns it (Remember Nev, that design is still on loan - I might need it to keep BIABrewer afloat!)


Pat

 

[PistolPatch]

puffer...

My PS above on MHB might have seemed a bit weird. I was looking at two BIAB threads at the same time and thought you were from the Central Coast. I just went to answer the other thread and see I have you mixed up.

Let us know where you are from and we can see if there is a better retailer option for you than MHB or Gryphon though I doubt it.

My apologies,
Pat

 

[Scruffy]

You know, I'm not actually sure there's that much difference between 3 tier and BIAB... except an esky, ...and an HLT, ...a few extra cliquey words, ..and a couple of chips for each shoulder.
You'll enjoy this Boil in a bag lark!! Hell, people are winning competitions with it these days...

 

[PistolPatch]

And there you go!

Endorsement from one of the nicest brewers I have ever met to date. Meeting Scruffy at the QLD Swap was a true blue brewing highlight for me.

He's a Pom and can't find fault with BIAB. What more can one ask?