Lagers And Step Mashing

[manticle]

I'm looking at making a malty lager next weekend. It's not particularly anally style driven but the idea is to have decent bittering and flavour from noble hops (specifically tettnanger which I love and have a shit ton of), full body and maltiness from the use of munich malt and a decoction and a dry finish. I'll explore the use of dingeman's pils malt for the base - exact recipe to be worked out but something like:

5kg pils
1 kg munich
200 biscuit
35-40 IBU tett (one x 60 min and one x 20 min)
Good size starter of one of the wy lager yeasts - maybe barvarian lager.
Some kind of salt (probably calc sulph and calc chlor - I'll re-read tony wheeler's great article and get a better understanding)

I have heard that protein rests used with currrent malts are unnecessary and can affect head retention. I KNOW that I could just do single infusion - I'm interested in exploring the traditional processes for this one so please don't tell me that. What I am concerned about is stuffing the nice head so anyone with experience of multi-step mashing for German style lagers please tell me if they think the protein rest is detrimental (or the acid rest).

Probably looking at a similar regime to that which I did for a weizen last year - acid rest, remove 1/3 mash and place in pot and bring to sacch temp. Meanwhile step up main mash with hot water to protein rest. Step up again with hot water to sacch temp, bring decoction to boil, boil and stir, add back to mash for mash out, proceed as normal

Mash temp will be something along the lines of 64-65.

I'm sure there's threads discussing protein rests and the ins and outs - not sure where and how to look for the exact answer to this though.

Any critique on the recipe idea from people who are experienced lager makers will be welcomed too.

 

[Fourstar]

with a KISS approach but still holding some traditions i'd jump straight to a single infusion with a decoction mashout.

or if you are itching to get even more traditional dough in at acid rest to increase FAN with a sacch rest decoct or 60 deg sacch rest then decoct to 72 then mashout. (hochkurz decoction)

you could always check out braukaiser.com for inspiration. :icon_cheers:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Decoction_Mashing

 

[Bribie G]

I would guess that Carapils comes from Weyermann for the simple reason that it was developed to provide that lovely creamy Pils head in the face of modern well modified Pilsener Malts, in the same way as Melanoidin to mimic Decoction flavours. My hypothesis anyway.

When I used a protein rest last year in a BoPils using Euro Pilsener malt the result was a bit undewhelming. Try it by all means but I wouldn't do it with an Aussie Malt like Galaxy.

 

[manticle]

or if you are itching to get even more traditional dough in at acid rest to increase FAN with a sacch rest decoct or 60 deg sacch rest then decoct to 72 then mashout. (hochkurz decoction)

That's very similar to what I did with my weizen and skips the protein rest - I may look along this angle. Cheers

 

[jakub76]

The last weizen I made I did a three step decoction including a ferulic acid rest. The resulting beer did not have anywhere near the head retention as my previous, single infusion versions. I think the low temp rest was responsible. It does however seem more stable from oxidation.

My previous versions have been difficult to pour for the amount of foam plus the flavour would develop and change a bit from week to week as it conditioned and eventually oxidized. The decoction version is darker, has a slight astringency in the finish and seems a lot more stable - lasting a lot longer before visible signs of oxidation.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

meh - I protien rest every beer I make - just a little higher than "trad" - I P rest at 55 for a few minutes, then ramp. I like what it does for my head retention.

I think with a decoction - where you are going to have the main mash at P rest temps for a much longer time, perhaps give it a miss.

I'd try 60 - 70 - Mashout or something around that. The lower temp rests for ferulic, acidification or FAN are just as un-needed as a P rest with modern malt, so include or exclude them because you feel like it or not; and for no other reason.

Decoctions are about badly made malt... as you already realise, doing them for any other reason is about a bit of flavour and to prove you can. Need.... pretty much doesn't enter the equation.

TB

 

[manticle]

My main reason for decoction (only done a couple) is mainly the melanoiden but I'm interested in traditional techniques too and seeing how they compare to SI.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Then I think you are on the right track... take a bit of care to avoid anything that you think might actually "hurt" the beer, then I think you are free to just have a good old fashioned crack and see how it turns out.

There are stacks of different decoction regimes - enough so that I doubt you can do anything even vaguely sensible and not be doing something that some mad German ******* is doing in his brewery in the boondocks of Franconia and using to churn out breathtakingly good lagers.

Have fun mate

TB

 

[manticle]

Cheers TB.

So this is the recipe and regime I've come up with. Haven't even ordered the ingredients yet so there's plenty of time to change. In terms of IBU levels - I realise thay may be higher than style guidelines but what I'm interested in is certain characteristics, not style guidelines. I'm hoping for advice on the technical processes and outcomes.

Germanish lager
Type: All grain
Size: 22 liters
Color: 8 HCU (~6 SRM)
Bitterness: 37 IBU
OG: 1.052
FG: 1.010
Alcohol: 5.5% v/v (4.3% w/w)
Grain: 3kg Wey Pilsner
1kg Wey Vienna
1kg Wey Munich
250g Ding biscuit
Mash: 70% efficiency
Boil: 90 minutes SG 1.036 32 liters
Hops: 50g Tettnanger (4.5% AA, 60 min.)
20g Tettnanger (4.5% AA, 20 min.)

4000 mL Wy 2633
Mash 64 degrees

mash schedule: Mash in with ratio of 2-2.5:1 water to grain to hit temp of 45 degrees. Rest 15 minutes
Add hot water to main mash to bring temp to 55 degrees. Rest 15 minutes. Remove 1/3 mash for decoction and place in pot. Add hot water to bring main mash to sacch temp
Bring decoction to 60-65 degrees, hold 20 minutes then increase heat to boil. Boil gently, stir constantly for remainder of main mash sacch temp rest (probably around 30 mins).
Add decoction back to main mash for mash out.
Proceed as normal.

Boil for 60 or 90 minutes?? (bearing in mind my 60 minute boils are actually 75 as I boil for 15 minutes before first hop addition. Therefore 90 min will actually be 105 min)

The 55 degree rest is the one I'm most curious about. Will this kill my head retention?

 

[jakub76]

A 4 litre starter for a single batch? At 18% of your wort I'm thinking that's going to have a substantial impact on flavour. As for your decoction regime I like the idea of pulling your decoction mash then using infusion to get to your next temp so you can better control how long your rests are. I reckon a 15 minute P rest sounds about right, mine was 20min @ 45C plus another 15min spent bringing the pulled 5L portion to the boil and I reckon that pretty much killed my head retention.

 

[manticle]

Haven't actually run it through pitching calc yet - was just a rough guess. I'll adjust.

 

[hockadays]

the bigger the better for lagers. Just let it ferment out then decant and pitch at 8degc.

 

[manticle]

Mr malty tells me I need 3.86 L assuming a viability of 100% so not sure how far off I am with my 4 L estimate.

 

[marksfish]

i would do a 100 minute boil to drive off all the dms in the pilsner malt, also the 4 litre starter seems close enough to mr. malty recommed pitch rate not to matter a damn.

 

[DUANNE]

the bigger the better for lagers. Just let it ferment out then decant and pitch at 8degc.

+ 1.if you really want after decanting you can always use 500m of wort for a couple of hours prior to pitching the yeast if youd prefer them active.

 

[Zwickel]

aaaahhh....I should have read this thread befor have sent a PM to manticle.

Manticle, if you dont mind, Ill post the same text here in the thread.

One has to distinguish between a top fermenting brew and a bottom fermenting brew, means to ferment warm or ferment cold.

Also the Wheat beers should be treated a special way.

I want to start with the wheat beer:
That special arome in the wheat beers is a by-product of a special strain of yeast. If you do a rest at around 43C (ferulic acid rest), a lot of amino acids and ferulic acids will be built. Ferulic acid is a precursor of the 4vinylguajakol, thats the stuff that turnes into banana and clove flavor when it gets metabolized by the yeast.

Thats the only reason to do a ferulic acid rest, only good for wheat beers, will be a flaw in any other beer.

So, if youre going to do a Pilsener or Lager, forget about the ferulic acid.

Doing a Pilsener or Lager:
even if its recommended to skip the protein rest, Im doing protein resting all my beers.
Basically it is not necessary to do a protein rest, but I found out, that my beers have a better and more stable head retention when I do a protein rest, also many of German homebrewers have confirmed that and a protein rest is a common practise here in Germany.

So Im mashing in the grain at around 52C and hold it there for about 20min (protein rest).
then heat it up to 63C for around 30min rest. The beta amylase has its peak to work best around 63C.
Then go to 72C for another 30min, rest, leaving the alpha amylase doing its work.
You may play around with the time a little bit: longer beta amylase rest makes drier beers and longer alpha amylase rest makes maltier beers.

Then go to 78C just to deactivate the enzymes and mashout.

If I had to do a decoction mash, Id do it the following way:

Mash in the grain into water at 55C at a water/grain ratio of ~2:1, leave it there resting for 20min. (protein rest)
Take a certain amount of boiling water and add to the mash until it reaches 64C, leave it resting for about 30min. Now the water/grain ratio could be around 3.5/1, thats just fine.
Take one third of the mash and boil it for just 5min., add it back to the mash to gain temp around 72C.
Keep it there for 30 min., then mashout.

The most important thing when doing a Lager or Pilsener beer is the yeast. Cool down the wort to around 8C and pitch the yeast at around the same temp. Youd need a huge amount of yeast.
Just keep it fermenting at that temp. Fermenting time shouldnt last longer than one week.

Cheers mates :icon_cheers:

 

[manticle]

Kind of advice I was looking for, cheers zwickel.

 

[jakub76]

the bigger the better for lagers. Just let it ferment out then decant and pitch at 8degc.

That makes sense now. Sorry I was assuming you'd pitch the whole starter, wort and all.

 

[manticle]

Would step up to 3 litres, decant and get started with another litre then pitch when that litre was active (or soemthing along those lines).

 

[Thirsty Boy]

The 55 degree rest is the one I'm most curious about. Will this kill my head retention?

Nope - 55 targets the proteases that will chop up longer proteins into medium length proteins that are good for head retention. I do the 55 rest because it suits my process and because I find it gives me lovely stable mousse like foam.

You'll go a long way before you get better advice than Zwickel's.. Do what the nice German man says!