Lagering

[matti]

No not really.

I have been assured time after time that there should be plenty of yeast left for bottle priming.
It will just take a little longer.
I raise the temp to 14-16 before I prime.
Then leave them at that temperature for 2-3 weeks. before storing around 7- 13 degrees at winter time.
I cannot control that part as it all happens in garage.

 

[DJR]

Stu

Apologies for the grave dig... but how did your no lager-lager turn out in the end?

Without a fridge here but fairly cold ambient temps i am thinking about trying a ferment with Budvar or W34/70 and just leaving it in primary for 3-4 weeks - using the same yeast for 2 beers, one lighter either a simple pale lager or Vienna then a big fat not-to-style Schwarzbier/Cerny Pivo on the cake.

Both yeasts in my experience were pretty clean even before lagering (mainly sulfur and a bit of "green" flavour), but i can't remember how quickly they got better with lagering, i remember vaguely the best improvement came between about 5 days and 7 days of lagering.

If it's all too hard i think i'll just go a mix of US05 and K97 which seems to have worked well in my latest Altbier, although it is taking a while to flocc out the K97.

 

[Stuster]

Not so well, Ben, but I haven't given up yet. (Just too stubborn, I guess.) Last year I used 802 and 838 on a split batch of German pilsner. The 802 was ok in time, the 838 less so. I also split a batch of Czech pilsner between 802 and 1007 and the ale yeast was far better far sooner. Two years ago I did a Munich dunkel, no lagering, using the 2278 yeast and it worked fine. Dark beers are much more accommodating of slight flaws of course. This year I'm going to use the S-189 dry yeast and see how that goes.

 

[DJR]

The 802 was ok in time

How long do you reckon? Was that "in time" being in bottles in the fridge for a while? I have a oldish smackpack of Wyeast Budvar (thanks PJO), i may be better off just going a clean ale yeast though.

also split a batch of Czech pilsner between 802 and 1007 and the ale yeast was far better far sooner.

Was it good with the 1007, i'd assume it turned out a bit Kolschy unless you fermented real cold?

This year I'm going to use the S-189 dry yeast and see how that goes.

Me three

 

[Tony]

My dubbelbock was firmented with the S-189. IT got cooked at 22 deg for a day half way through firmentation and never got CC'd. IT sat in secondary on my work bench for 3 months at about 25 deg actually. I just bottled it a few days ago.

It tasted ok going into the bottle but time will tell.

As said....... bigger flavour beers hide flaws and this beer was a 1.103 decoction mashed beer. Its BIG.

Will give it a month or 2 and crack one to see if its drinkable but from what ive heard about this yeast, its very tollerant, even when brewed at full ale temps.

I have 2 beers going now with it, both will be brewed at 11 deg and CC'd for a month.

cheers

 

[Stuster]

How long do you reckon? Was that "in time" being in bottles in the fridge for a while? I have a oldish smackpack of Wyeast Budvar (thanks PJO), i may be better off just going a clean ale yeast though.

Was it good with the 1007, i'd assume it turned out a bit Kolschy unless you fermented real cold?

Me three

The 1007 is supposedly an alt yeast. It's pretty clean, especially cold of course. I think it was fermented around 14C so it came out pretty clean.

The 'in time' was just stored in a cellar under somebody else's house, and they were kept till summer after being fermented in the middle of winter. The clean ale yeast might work well, or you could split a batch.

Tony, let us know how that big lager goes. That yeast is supposed to be the Samichlaus yeast so it should be good with big beers. Hmmm, maybe I should have a crack at a doppelbock on the yeast cake from a smaller beer.

 

[Tony]

Is that the 833 yeast?

 

[Stuster]

No, Tony, the S-189. It's apparently the same as the White Labs Zurich lager yeast which comes from a Swiss brewery. Good alcohol tolerance. Know any more about it Ross?

 

[bconnery]

To put some words into Ross's mouth, he does know a bit about it...
All indicators are that this does come from a Swiss brewery, someone posted a liquid yeast number in another thread that it was supposed to be equal to.

This yeast works well at higher temperatures apparently. Ross has a customer who against all readings and advice uses this yeast at ale temps and apparently the beers come out alright. I can't vouch for this personally but it has come up a few times at club meetings. Apart from that story everyone I know just treats this like a lager yeast, but my point is Tony's 22C lager might be alright...

Ross made a dopplebock with this yeast (I'm assuming it was actually, just because I know he uses it a lot. I could be wrong, in which case this point will be null and void ...) and it was drinkable ridiculously early in the process for such a high gravity beer...Even if it wasn't this yeast it certainly lends weight to the no lager method...

From my readings on threads on this yeast it appears to be a very good one for the 'no lager' method discussed here and elsewhere.
It seems to either not produce many by products or else clean up very well in a short time.
I haven't done a strict side by side recipe comparision but my last lager used w34/70 and it definitely took longer to come good. I still used the same method, ferment, crash chill and keg, and the maturing time was a lot longer.
A simple german pilsner made with s-189 can be drinkable at just over 3 weeks from brewday...
4 weeks and you'll be throwing them down My keg made for christmas drinking was entirely gone just over 5 weeks from brewday...

 

[Stuster]

Thanks for that, Ben. I think it was me that posted the number for the White Labs yeast. :lol:

Will definitely be giving this yeast a run in a couple of months time and will post back with the results.

 

[DJR]

Apologies for the massive gravedig but I thought i'd update with a bit of info

I brewed a Munich Helles, nowhere for much to stick out in that style with 1042 OG, 20 IBU and about 5 EBC. Did it with WLP833, (1.5L starter with olive oil) pitch temp 12, got up to 17C at one point, averaged about 15C. Waited for fermentation to complete (bit of diacetyl and quite a bit of sulfur as expected), then got temp down to 8C for about 2 or 3 week (didn't rack the beer as i wanted maximum yeast activity still). The beer turned out quite well and i'm just waiting for it to carb up now. I should note i used Polyclar VT and Gelatin - Polyclar VT at around 1015 SG and Gelatin once fermentation was complete. Going into the bottle i could have sworn this is the brightest beer i have made yet.

I saved some yeast cake and will brew an Oktoberfest very soon using a very similar method (so it will be ready for October) but judging by the results of the Helles, it could be that 2-3 weeks at a somewhat lower temp than primary is all that is needed rather than 2-3 months at 0-4C (of course this depends on the yeast strain etc, some of the Czech strains may still need a bit longer to clean up their loads of diacetyl). Might enter the Helles into a couple of comps and see what judges can pick up.