Lagering vessel options

[kaiserben]

Soon I'm going to make a lager (a dunkel) and I'll want to lager it for a while (ideally I'd like to split my batch into 2 equal 10.5L batches, put one on oak staves and leave the other one as is). I'm also looking at making a Belgian Quad that I wouldn't mind ageing in secondary for a while.

I'd love to simply use plastic cubes (as they're cheap, and I alrady own several 10L cubes), but if I'm laying something down in plastic for a month (or a year) is it likely to have much of an affect on the end product?

Also, I bottle and don't have access to CO2 to flush my containers, so should I forget secondary and just age/lager in glass bottles? (or even PET bottles?)

 

[S.E]

Your 10L cubes will be fine. You don’t need to flush them with co2.

 

[kaiserben]

Great. Exactly what I was wanting to hear.

 

[superstock]

I use the 12 L PET water bottles from Officeworks. Use the water for the brew and the clear PET bottles as fermenters and secondarys.

 

[spog]

Glad wrap for airlock s ?

 

[TheWiggman]

Your 10L cubes will be fine. You don’t need to flush them with co2.

Curious about this. Surely extended ageing would oxidise the beer? Depending on how long, HDPE cubes wouldn't be good because they would let O2 in at a far greater rate than PET. Hence why glass or stainless is the preferred material of choice for ageing.

 

[S.E]

Curious about this. Surely extended ageing would oxidise the beer? Depending on how long, HDPE cubes wouldn't be good because they would let O2 in at a far greater rate than PET. Hence why glass or stainless is the preferred material of choice for ageing.

I was answering the OP question, not suggesting HDPE is the best material out there.

Beer has traditionally been stored in porous oak barrels for centuries. OP has cubes and said he wants to use them for lagering. If he has, or wants to get glass or stainless he can do so. Many home brewers use cubes for lagering without a problem.

Edit: I mean oak barrels have been used for centuries, not that beer can be stored in them for centuries.

 

[TheWiggman]

It's all relevant and part of the question.
If we're talking lagers I wouldn't recommend lagering in a plastic secondary (not saying the result won't be good beer, I just think there are possible issues in doing so). It's another opportunity to introduce oxygen, especially if kaiserben doesn't have CO2 handy. The question I'd be asking myself is what is more likely to introduce problems -

1. Racking to a secondary and exposing the beer to a pocket air for 4 weeks?
2. Leaving the beer on the yeast cake for 4 weeks?

I would think that the impact of leaving it on the yeast would be less than oxidation over that period, hence forget the secondary and just leave it in the primary with a good protective atmosphere above it. If we're talking months, then absolutely rack off to a secondary, purge with CO2 and don't use HDPE. If year/s, plastic is out of the question.

After all's said and done though my personal preference would be c) bottle and lager in the bottle.

 

[kaiserben]

After all's said and done though my personal preference would be c) bottle and lager in the bottle.

If I went down this path, would I simply primary ferment for, say, 4 weeks. Then bottle (and leave at room temp for a couple of weeks to carbonate?). And then store bottles at household fridge temp for a couple of months?

 

[S.E]

It's all relevant and part of the question.
If we're talking lagers I wouldn't recommend lagering in a plastic secondary (not saying the result won't be good beer, I just think there are possible issues in doing so). It's another opportunity to introduce oxygen, especially if kaiserben doesn't have CO2 handy. The question I'd be asking myself is what is more likely to introduce problems -

1. Racking to a secondary and exposing the beer to a pocket air for 4 weeks?
2. Leaving the beer on the yeast cake for 4 weeks?

I would think that the impact of leaving it on the yeast would be less than oxidation over that period, hence forget the secondary and just leave it in the primary with a good protective atmosphere above it. If we're talking months, then absolutely rack off to a secondary, purge with CO2 and don't use HDPE. If year/s, plastic is out of the question.

After all's said and done though my personal preference would be c) bottle and lager in the bottle.

Well, as you said that’s your personal preference and he can do that if he wishes. Not sure how he will get on with the oak staves in the bottles though.

I don’t tend to overthink my brewing process and worry about, or try to eliminate every little thing that can possibly go wrong.

The 10L cubes are fine for what he wants to do. “(ideally I'd like to split my batch into 2 equal 10.5L batches, put one on oak staves and leave the other one as is)”.

Plastic cubes, pressure barrels and casks are commonly used for aging homebrew.

Assuming he’s not filtering or pasteurising his lager he does not need to purge with co2.

 

[S.E]

If I went down this path, would I simply primary ferment for, say, 4 weeks. Then bottle (and leave at room temp for a couple of weeks to carbonate?). And then store bottles at household fridge temp for a couple of months?

Yes you could do that. Thats just bottling though not really lagering.

 

[kaiserben]

I use the 12 L PET water bottles from Officeworks. Use the water for the brew and the clear PET bottles as fermenters and secondarys.

I'm now leaning towards this. $10.88 for a 12L PET (PETE1) container.

Because these are 12L and my batch size is 23L into fermenter (meaning it'll be more like 21.5L into secondary, leaving 2.5L headspace across the 2 x 12L bottles), should I squeeze these to get rid of the headspace? (a bit like you would if you were no chilling in a cube)

 

[Jack of all biers]

I use (and have consistently used), one 20L cube and two 25L cubes for the various size brews I do. Now from experience they are air tight and because I generally fill them with 22L (in the 20L cube) and 26L (in the 25L cubes) there is such a little amount of head space left to worry about. But worry, one does. So therefore, I always purge (release the screw cap "a little" after 1-3 days to expunge most of the air) leaving the CO2 that is being released from the beer. If you are really worried about it then you could add 20-50gm of dextrose or sugar to the cube to ensure the purge is complete, but I never bother. This is because if you do and forget to check the cube, it could expand and push it out of shape until it breaks (kaboom). I recently had a lager that I must have racked a little early as after the first night, the cube had pushed the bottom molding out of shape and it was almost round. After releasing the gases it returned to shape thankfully, but it is a good example of how airtight they are!
I generally lager for 1-2 months, but once left a Russian Imperial Stout in my 20L cube for 6 months (at room temp) before bottling (and 5 years later when I drank the last bottle, there was no oxidation off flavours).

Now this is just my experience, but really if you haven't done it, don't harp on about the theoretical breathing of HDPE causing staling in beer. Fear-mongering beginers into feeling they have to purchase expensive options such as Stainless or glass to avoid ruining their beers is not cool. Those materials may be more ideal, but more important than what your lagering vessel is made of is how well the openings are sealed (air tight). Also, how you transfer your beer from primary to secondary/lagering vessel is far more important to reduce oxidation. A tube to the bottom of the vessel and a slow release of the beer until the tube outlet is well covered is a must. Don't forget to sanitize everything first.
1-2 months lagering in HDPE cubes has been and will continue to be fine.

I'm now leaning towards this. $10.88 for a 12L PET (PETE1) container.

Because these are 12L and my batch size is 23L into fermenter (meaning it'll be more like 21.5L into secondary, leaving 2.5L headspace across the 2 x 12L bottles), should I squeeze these to get rid of the headspace? (a bit like you would if you were no chilling in a cube)

I'd avoid squeezing the headspace as you will be introducing negative pressure and if the seal is not that good on these containers you are activily encouraging it to suck air in. Better to add 20gm dextrose and leave for 3 days at room temp to purge the air than attempt to squeeze it out. Then bring to lager temps.
On the single use water containers (12L PET ones you may be refering to). I'd trust the screw capped water container cubes, but some of the thiner water containers (and their various tap mechanisms) may not be so air tight. The cubes aren't that expensive and last forever if stored correctly (away from heat and light/UV).

Rant over.

 

[manticle]

Soon I'm going to make a lager (a dunkel) and I'll want to lager it for a while (ideally I'd like to split my batch into 2 equal 10.5L batches, put one on oak staves and leave the other one as is). I'm also looking at making a Belgian Quad that I wouldn't mind ageing in secondary for a while.
I'd love to simply use plastic cubes (as they're cheap, and I alrady own several 10L cubes), but if I'm laying something down in plastic for a month (or a year) is it likely to have much of an affect on the end product?
Also, I bottle and don't have access to CO2 to flush my containers, so should I forget secondary and just age/lager in glass bottles? (or even PET bottles?)

1+ months in plastic, no drama.
If approaching 6+ I'd be looking at glass.

Flush with co2 if you can but definitely exclude as much oxygen as you can in any case (fill headspace with boiled water if its minimal and seal well).

I wouldn't stress too much for 1-2 months as long as the lid is tight snd the beer is off the main yeast cake (and kept cool and away from loads of light).

 

[Jack of all biers]

Rant started again as I just re-read the below.

It's all relevant and part of the question.
If we're talking lagers I wouldn't recommend lagering in a plastic secondary (not saying the result won't be good beer, I just think there are possible issues in doing so). It's another opportunity to introduce oxygen, especially if kaiserben doesn't have CO2 handy. The question I'd be asking myself is what is more likely to introduce problems -

1. Racking to a secondary and exposing the beer to a pocket air for 4 weeks?
2. Leaving the beer on the yeast cake for 4 weeks?

I would think that the impact of leaving it on the yeast would be less than oxidation over that period, hence forget the secondary and just leave it in the primary with a good protective atmosphere above it.

Rubbish.

You state that lagering in HDPE is questionable and then suggest that it is better for brewers to lager their beer on the yeast cake for 4 weeks in the primary? Given that most home brewers in Australia (and I dare say most of the world) have HDPE primary fermenters with airlocks, then this would be counterproductive to your no lagering in HDPE argument. But worst than that is the fact that the airlock will suck air into the primary as the air pressure inside the primary decreases!!!

After all's said and done though my personal preference would be c) bottle and lager in the bottle.

Your personal preference is to lager in the bottle? Come on, what would be the point in that? You wouldn't ferment in multiple small quantities, so why would lagering in small quantities be preferable?

Edit - I have edited out a comment I made about storing for years, as a quick re-read of the OP shows he did suggest storing for months or a year.

 

[manticle]

Lagering drops unwanted stuff to the bottom so it can be left behind before packaging. Why would you want to wait until packaging to drop out the stuff you want to leave out of the package?

 

[TheWiggman]

Not interested in a sling fest here. I use HDPE for all my fermenting and no-chill so I'm not exactly a stainless or glass devotee. I never said lagering in HDPE is questionable. Read it again - I didn't. Maybe we should be asking: what is meant by lagering? Fundamentally, lagering means 'to store'. OP mentioned a Belgian quad, splitting a batch and using oak staves on a split batch. Absolutely, if we're talking splitting on staves then who isn't talking about 'lagering' for months or years? No timeframes were mentioned. It's not unknown or uncommon to store a big big for many months or years before bottling. If you don't think that happens then I'm not going to try and convince you.
You can store some beers for years, some being on oak staves or similar as OP mentioned. Tony recent did on a Flanders Red, and while these beers may be uncommon some brewers do store beers for years. HDPE is unsuitable I this case when glass is available. That's not rubbish. Less than a few months, no problem (as I said). Glass is better than HDPE, and personally I won't rack for a few weeks again without CO2. I suffered from oxidation after a few months in the bottle.
As for a lager - the beer type not the method - my preference is to lager in the bottle. Well, lager in the keg and bottle fill (that's how I brew). Racking to a secondary for weeks in any kind of container* is more likely to introduce oxidation than simply bottling unless you are splashing the crap out of the beer in the bottling process. If there is a legitimate reason to rack then go for it - separation of sediment as mentioned - but if not, why rack? That was the question I was raising.

*Ed: without CO2

 

[manticle]

Lager in the keg then bottle is different to lagering in the bottle.

Why rack? While the need to rack to a secondary has been way overstated in hb terms in the past, it is widely accepted (and my personal experience bears this out) that extended contact can and often does lead to a myriad of unwelcome flavours including goaty, meaty and soapy.
We're talking months rather than weeks but not that many months. Racking is not gospel but it has its place.

 

[Jack of all biers]

As for a lager - the beer type not the method - my preference is to lager in the bottle. Well, lager in the keg and bottle fill (that's how I brew). Racking to a secondary for weeks in any kind of container* is more likely to introduce oxidation than simply bottling unless you are splashing the crap out of the beer in the bottling process. If there is a legitimate reason to rack then go for it - separation of sediment as mentioned - but if not, why rack? That was the question I was raising.

The problem with your initial comments were that they were general and not specific in any detail, leaving those who read this thread who have little experience with the wrong take on your meaning. One example

After all's said and done though my personal preference would be c) bottle and lager in the bottle.

"Bottle and lager in the bottle". Given your most recent post this is not what you meant, but we are not mind readers. And yes he did mention making a Belgian Quad in the future and ageing for a while, but he also was questioning re his dunkel (lager) with the oak staves.

Soon I'm going to make a lager (a dunkel) and I'll want to lager it for a while (ideally I'd like to split my batch into 2 equal 10.5L batches, put one on oak staves and leave the other one as is). I'm also looking at making a Belgian Quad that I wouldn't mind ageing in secondary for a while.

Edit - I was typing this post when Manticle posted his.

 

[kaiserben]

Great rant, Jack of all biers. Very helpful. Cheers!

This little snippet seems obvious now,

A tube to the bottom of the vessel and a slow release of the beer until the tube outlet is well covered is a must.

but I'd just been turning the tap on full bore from the get go. So from now on that part of my process will change.