Lager question

[shacked]

One pack is plenty!

For liquid yeast, I’ll brew a lower gravity, smaller (15L cube) batch with a 2.5L starter and then repitch the slurry from that into other batches. I’ve found that transferring the beer off the yeast cake (into a keg for me) before cold crashing helps keep the viability of the yeast in good shape for the next fermentation.

 

[Coldspace]

Thanks. I know how it works. Funnily enough, a bunch of really knowledgeable, well educated and well funded groups and individuals throughout several decades and all across the globe have run much more well designed experiments and come up with completely different results to brulosophy - all with variables isolated, large sample groups and repeatability. Yet one bloke on the internet doing some half arsed **** with six mates and some free piss in multicoloured cups is enough to debunk all that and more in the minds of so many.

Yes I’ve brewed beer with less than adequate yeast. Many times.

Also brewed the same/similar recipes with recommended amounts from multiple packs, reused yeast slurry, active starters, etc. No reason for anyone but me to take my subjective experience on faith but high pitching rates have won for me just about every time. Active, adequate starters are my pick of choice, oxygenation next on my list.

1000% agree! anyone who says diff is still on a learning curve with lager making.
I always do large starters with my lagers, usually couple of 3 ltr stepped and decanted for 45 ltr batches. Always pitch at lower end of temp range of yeast and allow to go through to higher end of temp range in the last 10% of ferment. Oxygen as well.
My kit and kg friends I've set up as they are mega swill type blokes used to do coopers ales etc but I've shown them to do kit lagers at temp control of course and every time they only pitched one packet of yeast , I'd go over there and could taste the butters etc in their beers, ever since I have hassled them to invest in 2 pkt of yeast( hard to convince tight arse brewers lol) their brews are heaps better and they don't look back now.
I've pitched large starters in some of their brews and added oxygen and it's shown them the next level of quality again.

Interesting experiment I've just done on a lager, pressure fermented to see if the higher temps made any diff, well it made the ferment really fast, and you can still detect some slight esters from the yeast over the lower temp version, I'll put the results up in the pressure ferment thread.

Doctorsmcbrewdle, yes you can brew lager with less yeast, higher temps but it will leave unwanted flavours for style, I have even done a few of the brulosphy fast ferment techniques, ie pitch and allow to raise up and finish off, yes it makes an acceptable lager, but if you want a genuine clean lager then big pitches and hold low for the first 90% of ferment is the key.

There was a secret weapon that a lot of experienced lager winners used, it's called a stir plate.

Cheers

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Well I ended up going 100% BB ale malt to 1.040. Same Hallertau hop additions and yeast. It's just about done fermenting now, almost cold crash time and taste? Good! It pretty well tastes exactly the same as the other but presenting a little darker in colour. And that's including less malt and a further 4l brew water. Looking forward to seeing how it ages after lagering. Will keep you posted

Well, I'm drinking the first one as we speak..! How is it?.

For one reason or another, it's almost crystal clear already, less than a week (4 days) in the bottle. It has a nice golden hue with slightly 'sweeter' nose, reminiscent of your standard Aussie type lager to me. It's slightly more caramelly and possibly smoother. Though it's made to 4.4% abv rather than the usual 5.4 I do. Good to have something I can drink more of because geez this stuff's so damn tasty I end up getting totally wasted. You just can't help it! So will make an effort to brew lower abv from here on in because it really is starting to affect my life. Anyhow, on with the review. Though not quite ready yet, experience tells me what to expect after the green-ness subsides, it's a nice flavoursome, clean beer. Actually moreso than I expected with lower abv so glad to find that. May even go a little lower next time. Mouthfeel is really good. Not heavy, not too light, as I'd expect from a boutique lager. To be honest, most megaswill types have alot less body than this still and I'm confident you could go 10-20% simple sugar if you were trying to emulate something like that.

So, glad I did the experiment. It's safe to say I like it just as much as the Best Malz pilsner malt. So I will end up using the ale malt for something after all! I've since decided I kove Maris Otter for my ale's so much it'd be hard to go back to Aussie base malt for the time being

Cheers!

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Question: Guys, I've read that it's not necessary to make a starter from dry yeast, only liquid to build up cells (I'm reading dried yeast has enough viable cells so long as we pitch the correct dose) what's the real go here?

 

[timmi9191]

True and false.
Yes pitch enough viable yeast is applicable to both dry and liquid yeasts.
However pitching enough is only part of the equation. Pitching enough viable yeast in a prime state (high krausen of the starter) is considered best practice.

For example i regularly use s-189, fresh and harvested. I always pitch the amount recommended by mr malty but also always start the yeast.
Couple of 100g of dme costs sfa compared to a batch of lager full of phenolics

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

So, basically: Make a starter, no matter what if you want to make great beer?

I've never made one before. What do I do, exactly? Finding it fun all these extra steps to better brews!

 

[shacked]

So, basically: Make a starter, no matter what if you want to make great beer?

I've never made one before. What do I do, exactly? Finding it fun all these extra steps to better brews!

It’s significantly more challenging to over-pitch than under-pitch. When in doubt pitch more yeast!

Get yourself an Erlenmeyer flask or two. Make up some 10:1 water to DME wort (eg 100g of dme to 1L of water), boil for about 10 mins, chill and add yeast.

You can ferment them a little hotter than usual should you please, and once fermentation is done you can decant the spent wort and pitch the yeast cake. The other option is to wait until the starter is at high krusen (fermenting like a banshee) and pitch the lot!

A stir plate with bar will also help propagate more yeasties. With no stir plate you could just periodically shake the starter.

Check the YouTubes; there are plenty of “how to” vids.

 

[rude]

1000% agree! anyone who says diff is still on a learning curve with lager making.
I always do large starters with my lagers, usually couple of 3 ltr stepped and decanted for 45 ltr batches. Always pitch at lower end of temp range of yeast and allow to go through to higher end of temp range in the last 10% of ferment. Oxygen as well.
My kit and kg friends I've set up as they are mega swill type blokes used to do coopers ales etc but I've shown them to do kit lagers at temp control of course and every time they only pitched one packet of yeast , I'd go over there and could taste the butters etc in their beers, ever since I have hassled them to invest in 2 pkt of yeast( hard to convince tight arse brewers lol) their brews are heaps better and they don't look back now.
I've pitched large starters in some of their brews and added oxygen and it's shown them the next level of quality again.

Interesting experiment I've just done on a lager, pressure fermented to see if the higher temps made any diff, well it made the ferment really fast, and you can still detect some slight esters from the yeast over the lower temp version, I'll put the results up in the pressure ferment thread.

Doctorsmcbrewdle, yes you can brew lager with less yeast, higher temps but it will leave unwanted flavours for style, I have even done a few of the brulosphy fast ferment techniques, ie pitch and allow to raise up and finish off, yes it makes an acceptable lager, but if you want a genuine clean lager then big pitches and hold low for the first 90% of ferment is the key.

There was a secret weapon that a lot of experienced lager winners used, it's called a stir plate.

Cheers

Yes but do you make a starter for dried yeast like Labels or just rehydrate & pitch the correct amount
Also the 5 x min 10 x max rule for stepped starters is the go

 

[timmi9191]

...or just rehydrate & pitch the correct amount..

Oh no...

 

[rude]

Didnt mean to start the old debate sorry

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Supercalla-freakinawesone. Thanks man!

 

[Coldspace]

Na, just grow up from 1 ltr to 2.5 ltr x2 usually plenty for standard lager

I always grow my dried yeasts up, works a treat

 

[Coodgee]

so I ended up with a rather unexpected result with my beer. To recap, I rehydrated 3 packs of W34/70 and pitched into a 1047 wort of 100% pils malt and fermented at 11.5-12 degrees. It has finished fermenting at 1013/1014. I took a hydrometer reading after about 6 days when the krausen started to drop and it was reading about 1014 then. I raised up the temp to 18 for a D rest and today it was still at 1014 according to the hydrometer. I was surprised so I took a refractometer reading and adjusted with a calculator and it gave me 1013. This is obviously quite high. With a multi-step mash of 55-62-70 I got a beersmith estimate of 1007. Not to worry though, it will still be quite nice and actually tastes quite dry with a nice bready aroma to it. And now I have a massive yeast cake to try again with. I am quite tempted to do the exact beer again, or maybe an adjunct lager.

 

[TheSumOfAllBeers]

With a yeast cake like that you can do high gravity lagers. Think Baltic Porter, bock etc

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Update. Well, with possibly a few tips here I found my lager's improving, but still not quite 100% bang on. Until I bought some Weyerman pils malt. I'd been using JW prior to this and the difference is night and day. Wow!

The JW always had something that wasn't quite Pilsner in it's finish, a heaviness of mouthfeel that I could never quite seem to get around hence asking where I might've been going wrong. The Weyerman is incredible stuff! It's just the standard pilsner malt vesion but no desire to try their premium version yet

So for anyone possibility not quite happy with their light lager, one word: Weyerman

Cheers!

 

[MHB]

Do try the Premium Pilsner, I think its even better than the standard Weyermann Pilsner.
I suspect JW assume you are going to be adding a fair wack of adjunct/sugar and design the malt accordingly. Weyermann certainly wouldn't be making that sort of assumption.
Mark

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Thanks Mark

Wow, I can't wait to try the premium then! I'll take a look at that online in that case

Cheers for the JW info too, it makes good sense now seeming many of the mega Aussie beers are probably using it knowing they also use sucrose

 

[Dan Pratt]

And after premium try Bohemian Floor Malted Pilsner, that malt is amazing.

 

[MHB]

I love the Floor Malted, it's Czech barley floor malted in Bamberg.
Apparently its about as close to what would have been used in the original Pilsner Urquell as you can get. I also like it in a fuller bodied Wheat beer (think winter weight Heff).
On the three
Weyermann Pilsner - North German, lighter dryer crisper lagers.
Weyermann Premium Pilsner - South German/Bohemian beers with more fullness and maltiness (more my cup of tea).
Weyermann Floor malted - Very Bohemian, bigger fuller and maltier, being floor malted a little more colour and complexity, does reward a classic step mash regime, a Glucan/Protein rest followed by some time at 62, 65, 70oC, Mash Out is ideal.
If you ever want to try decoction - Choose this malt!
Mark

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

You guys serious.. surely it can't get much better than this. Lookin forward to trying!