Knappstein Reserve Lager Clone

[Phrak]

Evening all
I recently had the pleasure to try Knappsein's Reserve Lager and boy was I impressed!

I've brewed a tweaked version of Ross' Nelson Sauvin Summer Ale a few times, and loved every drop, but the Knappstein was (obviously) pleasantly different.

So I brewed my approximation of the beer last weekend. It's still in a cube waiting or some fermenter space, but I'm hoping it'll turn out well. Kettle tastings were promising :chug:

Still undecided what yeast to use though. Any suggestions?

Has anyone else attempted a clone (or similar), or have any suggestions if I try this again?
:beer:
Tim

Knappstein Reserve Clone
Type: All Grain
Date: 28/07/2007
Batch Size: 22 L
Brewer: Tim
Boil Time: 90 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.0

Ingredients
Amount Item Type % or IBU
4600.00 gm Pilsner, Malt Craft Export (Joe White) (3.2 EBC) Grain 90.9 %
460.00 gm Wheat, Torrified (3.3 EBC) Grain 9.1 % <!--- Was intending 500gms, but that's all I had left>
10.00 gm Nelson Sauvin 06 [12.20%] (30 min) Pellets 12.6 IBU
10.00 gm Nelson Sauvin 06 [12.20%] (20 min) Pellets 10.0 IBU
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
13.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh 05 [4.10%] (10 min) Plugs 2.4 IBU
10.00 gm Nelson Sauvin 06 [12.20%] (5 min) Pellets 3.3 IBU
Total Grain Weight: 5060.00 gm

Beer Profile
Est Original Gravity: 1.050 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.009 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.4 %
Bitterness: 25.1 IBU
Calories: 696 cal/l
Est Color: 6.4 EBC Color:

Mash Profile
Full-volume Infusion: Add 24.80 L of water at 63.0 C for 60 min
Mash Out: Heat to 78.0 C over 10 min for 10 min

 

[Screwtop]

Evening all

Still undecided what yeast to use though. Any suggestions?

Tim

Definitely S189 (Craftbrewer SwissLager, crisp and clean)

 

[Muggus]

I would have thought they'd use more Nelson than that, albeit a a rather potently acidic hop, for dry hopping purposes. Though your estimated FG seems reasonably low and dry enough to accentuate the hops.

 

[Maple]

this maybe a dumb newbie question, but if you have 5+ kg of grain, and your using a total of 24.8L of water to mash, and a 90 minute boil, how will you end up with a 22L batch? Sorry if i don't quite understand, just trying to learn as i go...and seem to be losing about 1L per kg when mashing? any thoughts or guidence on what I'm doing wrong/different?
Cheers

 

[bconnery]

My understanding, totally through Ross I'll admit, is that this is actually a 1 grain 1hop beer. Nothing but Pils malt and Nelson Sauvin.

I will say though that the recipe you have there looks pretty tasty and should definitely produce a good beer that is fairly close...

I'd second the choice of S189 as a dried yeast!

 

[T.D.]

Hi Phrak,

I recently brewed a Nelson Sauvin / Mittlefueh lager. It was basically half/half Nelson Sauvin and Mittlefrueh. From my experience with this beer I really don't think you need (or even want) Mittlefrueh in a clone of Knappstein. The Nelson Sauvin does dominate the beer I made but the Mittlefrueh in the background kind of scews the beew away from being bang on the money of Knappstein. Its hard to describe, but I have come to the conclusion that 100% Nelson Sauvin would have been a much more accurate way of cloning this beer.

And also, I only had 2 10g additions of Nelson Sauvin in my beer and its by no means in the background. I think the amount you have in your recipe is probably about spot on. My only advice would be to drop the Mittlefrueh...

If I tried to brew a clone of this beer I'd probably do something like...

100% Pilsner Malt (to 1.045 OG)
Bitter to ~ 25-27 IBUs
1/2g/L Nelson Sauvin @ 15mins
1/2g/L Nelson Sauvin @ 5mins

I'd also be tempted to add another 1/2g/L in at flameout too but that could make it a bit too hoppy... maybe... (geez, that comment feels so wrong! :lol: )

 

[Phrak]

Cheers for the info guys, I'll grab some yeasties and ferment away when I get some fermentor fridge room - two cubes are in the line ahead of this one.
Should be just about ready for spring

 

[Effect]

Hi Phrak,

I recently brewed a Nelson Sauvin / Mittlefueh lager. It was basically half/half Nelson Sauvin and Mittlefrueh. From my experience with this beer I really don't think you need (or even want) Mittlefrueh in a clone of Knappstein. The Nelson Sauvin does dominate the beer I made but the Mittlefrueh in the background kind of scews the beew away from being bang on the money of Knappstein. Its hard to describe, but I have come to the conclusion that 100% Nelson Sauvin would have been a much more accurate way of cloning this beer.

And also, I only had 2 10g additions of Nelson Sauvin in my beer and its by no means in the background. I think the amount you have in your recipe is probably about spot on. My only advice would be to drop the Mittlefrueh...

If I tried to brew a clone of this beer I'd probably do something like...

100% Pilsner Malt (to 1.045 OG)
Bitter to ~ 25-27 IBUs
1/2g/L Nelson Sauvin @ 15mins
1/2g/L Nelson Sauvin @ 5mins

I'd also be tempted to add another 1/2g/L in at flameout too but that could make it a bit too hoppy... maybe... (geez, that comment feels so wrong! :lol: )

Just as you thought that this thread was long gone, BAM! I bring it back to life.

Could I use a neutral hop such as northern brewer to bitter and just nelson sauvin to flavour and aroma?

Could I move the 5 min addition to dry hop?

Cheers
Phil

 

[Fents]

can i just say i love this beer! going to have to throw one together i think.!

 

[Effect]

Batch Size: 23.00 L


5.70 kg Pilsner Joe White (export) (1.0 SRM) Grain 95.0 %
0.30 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 5.0 %
20.00 gm Northern Brewer [8.50%] (60 min) Hops 17.3 IBU
11.50 gm Nelson Sauvin [11.40%] (15 min) Hops 6.6 IBU
11.50 gm Nelson Sauvin [11.40%] (Dry Hop 3 days) Hops -
1 Pkgs SafLager German Lager (DCL Yeast #S-189) Yeast-Lager


How is that looking?

 

[Adamt]

Depends how much Sauvin flavour you want... if you want it to whallop you in the face follow the original recipe suggested and get all of your IBU from flavour additions.

 

[Steve]

I'd be going NS all the way too
Cheers
Steve

Edit: You only have one addition of NS to the boil (at 15 mins). Not enough I reckon for aroma and flavour. I'd be going, 20 mins, 10 mins, 5 mins and 0 mins as well as dry hopping!

 

[Screwtop]

I'd be going NS all the way too
Cheers
Steve

+1

Visited the Brewery in 2007, all NS from the horses mouth

 

[Effect]

Well, I only have 40 grams of NS...so looks like I will just have to make a tasty beer - not a knappstein clone

 

[Rod]

For those without all grain gear

Nelson Sauvin Lager

Batch size: 23L
Boil volume: 4L
Boil time:40 min
Boil:
500g light dried malt extract
200g Crystal malt (steeped for 1/2 hour then sparged)
30g Nelson Sauvin (10.5%AA) 30min
30g Nelson Sauvin (10.5%AA) 5min
Added at flame out:
900g Light dried malt extract
2kg Lager liquid malt extract
Added at racking:
30g Nelson Sauvin (10.5%AA) dry hopped
Yeast:
1 litre starter of White Labs WLP830 German Lager yeast
Fermentation:
6 days at 13 deg C
5 days after racking @ 14 deg C

3 months in the bottle

I added a total of 75g ( 25 each addition ) in the last batch , all I had left
and found it still as good as the first batch I made.

credits to somebody else on this site where I got the recipe from

 

[schooey]

I have brewed a few variations of the NS summer ale thats kicked around this site in attempt to get close to the Knappstein Lager, a beer that I enjoy. Firstly with 90% Maris, 10% wheat and all NS and using the S189 rather than an Ale yeast. It was ok. I've brewed it a number of times since and this is what I use, and it comes up pretty close in my opinion;

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Knappstein Clone
Brewer: Schooey
Asst Brewer:
Style: Standard American Lager
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 25.00 L
Boil Size: 28.62 L
Estimated OG: 1.047 SG
Estimated Color: 3.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 30.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
4.50 kg Pilsner (IMC) (2.0 SRM) Grain 90.0 %
0.50 kg Wheat Malt (Barrett Burston) (1.5 SRM) Grain 10.0 %
15.00 gm Nelson Sauvin [11.30%] (60 min) Hops 16.8 IBU
10.00 gm Nelson Sauvin [11.30%] (30 min) Hops 8.6 IBU
20.00 gm Nelson Sauvin [11.30%] (5 min) Hops 4.5 IBU
15.00 gm Nelson Sauvin [11.30%] (1 min) Hops 0.7 IBU
1 Pkgs SafLager German Lager (DCL Yeast #S-189) Yeast-Lager


Mash Schedule: My Mash
Total Grain Weight: 5.00 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temp Step Time
Step Add 15.00 L of water at 71.5 C 66.0 C 60 min


In my experience with this yeast in this beer, you want to ferment as low as you can within it's range, for a long time. I usually ferment at 12C and grow a big starter. In my experience brewing warmer with this yeast will throw weird phenols and other band aid type flavours. I also lager it for at least 4 weeks. Hope this helps

Edit: If you only have 40g of NS, I reckon you will still get pretty close by subbing in Northern Brewer for some of your bittering hops. NB is pretty nuetral and the flavour and aroma additions of the NS will dominate anyway

 

[Kai]

My understanding, totally through Ross I'll admit, is that this is actually a 1 grain 1hop beer. Nothing but Pils malt and Nelson Sauvin.

I'd second that just from drinking it. It seems sufficiently bland and one-dimensional to be sauvin and pils only.

 

[micblair]

Hey thinking about doing this one as my first Lager, but also good opportunity for a SMASH beer, does anyone have anything to contribute or have verified/tried any of the mentioned recipes above of late?

The info I've got so far are:

5 kg of Pils
80 g of Nelson Sauvin.
WYEAST 2124

Haven't got any other details on boil and hop addition times yet.

 

[Nick JD]

Buy a Oetinger and get a cat to piss in it a little bit.

 

[labels]

Hey thinking about doing this one as my first Lager, but also good opportunity for a SMASH beer, does anyone have anything to contribute or have verified/tried any of the mentioned recipes above of late?

The info I've got so far are:

5 kg of Pils
80 g of Nelson Sauvin.
WYEAST 2124

Haven't got any other details on boil and hop addition times yet.

Mash at slightly higher than mid range, about 68C, this will give a little more body and sweetness to balance the Nelson Sauvin. 1 hour mash should be plenty, any more and you'll end up thinning it out too much (too much simple sugars = thin lager). Lager yeast. My fav is Wyeast Danish because it is very forgiving. Follow Wyeast's recommended temp range, don't go lower you'll end with a diacetyl problem. After 10 days primary fermentation will be 80-90% complete. Warm the beer to 16-18C until terminal fermentation - about 3-4 days (the krauseen will fall) and then whip it back to 10C. Drop the temp 1 degree per day for 10 days. Hold the beer at freezing for 5 days, keg, filter, carbonate.
I would not suggest dry hopping and be very carefull about how much you use late in the boil or you will get a distinctive grassy taste = yuk in a light style lager.

Good luck!