Kits and bits BUT no roasted barley -- can I do a red ale?

[Lord Ester]

Thanks, Tim T, for the explanation. For the brew I propose, would it be a way of getting a more caramel flavour into the mix?

D.boy Stu and Brendo, appreciate the comments / debate on subbing grains. Because I don't have any roasted barley, it looks like it's going to be down to the crystal and choc malt (and amber extract). For a bloke like me who didn't even know there was a difference between 'red' and 'amber' ales, I may not be well qualified to guess at the differences or similarities by brewing without roasted barley.

What about the hops? With a swag of Helga, and a smattering of Cascade, Amarillo, Galaxy and Willamette, would a spicy, floral hop like Helga be a good fit for a red ale, or is there a better combination here? I'm not big on hop bitterness ...

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Depends on what you want. Scottish Red ales, which is what my Pillar of Red is, are only lightly hoped and malt driven. There is nothing wrong with making a hoppy red ale.

 

[TimT]

Thanks, Tim T, for the explanation. For the brew I propose, would it be a way of getting a more caramel flavour into the mix?

Maybe. I'd think of the flavour as more toffee like. I've deliberately boiled/burnt the malt sugars only rarely and never with a can kit, but the principle is the same.

For caramel flavours I'd say leave the wort on for a shorter time; for toffee, longer. But maybe ask around, some other extract brewers might have done something like this.

 

[Lord Ester]

TimT, I think I'll try and play it pretty straight with this batch. But I do love toffee and caramel flavours in beer, and so I will probably get there sooner rather than later.

D.boy Stu -- what if I took your hops schedule for Pillar, and just subbed Helga instead of EKG? Can I ask, when you do it with EKG and the amounts you have used, do you get much hop bittering, or is it predominantly flavour?

 

[Bribie G]

I rarely use RB for red ales, my pick is Caraaroma which is a crystal malt so doesn't need mashing. It also gives a nice "toffee" twang to the brew. About 300g will get you something like this:



Don't be tempted to use Carared, it's not all that red in fact.

 

[Lord Ester]

Hi Bribie G. I only have JW crystal this time around, and some JW choc as well. I could buy the extra grains (and your ale DOES look amazing), but for now I think I need to focus on using what I have, and learning from it. (Plus I think my wife might have something to say about much more of this 'beer stuff' coming into the house at the moment!)

For future reference, I will note what you've said. I did try a Karl Strauss Red Trolley Ale recently and loved it. I Googled it and notice that a few ppl have done a clone of this, and most of those recipes don't have roasted barley in them. That surprised me lots! Because to date all the recipes I'd seen for red ales had RB in them ...

TimT -- if I DID boil some of the extract to get some caramel … would I add some water to the extract first before boiling? What if I added some of my steep water (from the crystal and choc) with the extract (1/4 tin?) and boil that?

 

[TimT]

No, I'd say just use the extract, don't add anything.

I'd take a small amount of extract and boil it in a largish pot as it tends to rise up a lot during the boil.

And be aware that sugars boil at a higher temp than water.... so you don't want to go sticking your fingers in or anything. That shit is going to burn.

 

[TheWiggman]

How much Special B do you have? That should contribute to some 'red' flavours if used appropriately.

 

[Lord Ester]

Hi Wiggman. Got 1kg. How much would I need, and would I just steep it with the other grains?

 

[Lord Ester]

TimT -- so you're telling me that if I boiled down a portion of the Pale Ale kit without the use of the other spec grains that I should get something approximating a red ale in flavour?

At the money it seems there are two roads in front of me:

-Boil down a (nominated) amount of Pale Ale extract and gain red ale flavours (colours too?) that way, with no spec grains. Would I still add the unhopped Briess extract? Leave it out altogether? Make it part of the boil too?

-Keep the recipe I proposed above with spec grains (and poss include some Spec B as per Wiggman's suggestion) and not boiling a portion of extract.

Would boiling a portion of extract do something to the hops in the Coopers extract as well as the malts?

Sorry to pepper you with qu's ...

 

[TimT]

TimT -- so you're telling me that if I boiled down a portion of the Pale Ale kit without the use of the other spec grains that I should get something approximating a red ale in flavour?

Nope, I'm sort of curious what would happen myself!

 

[Lord Ester]

IF I did it, what would prob make more sense is boiling out some of the Briess Sparkling Amber extract and NOT the Coopers APA.

The Briess is unhopped, and so that might make more sense -- but this is only my very "brew-uneducated" mind at work ...

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

D.boy Stu -- what if I took your hops schedule for Pillar, and just subbed Helga instead of EKG? Can I ask, when you do it with EKG and the amounts you have used, do you get much hop bittering, or is it predominantly flavour?

The idea of Scottish ales is low bitterness. You only want a hint of bitterness and flavour. The reason is, that way back, hops in Scotland were expensive and not all that fresh due to the English being a bunch of pricks, So they made beers that reflected the lack of hoppy goodness they could use. Sort of the opposite of an IPA.

 

[Lord Ester]

Interesting. Opposite to IPA sounds good to me! (I know that's blasphemy to some.)

So I will use a similar schedule to your Pillar of Red, just Helga instead of EKG ...

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Beers like Scottish Ales, Mild's etc are not that easy to get right.

They are far less forgiving than any IPA /Porter/Stout will ever be.

As for the Helga....mmm...Its a low AA hop..so lends itsef to more flavour & aroma. Might just work

 

[Lord Ester]

Thanks, D.boy Stu. With only 3 brews under my belt, I'm not really in a place to let things get too complicated.

I'll hop with Helga, but keep those hops to the earlier-mid part of the boil.

 

[Lord Ester]

Well, it's in the FV.

I only ended up doing a 15lt batch (have been playing with smaller batches lately), so I knocked out the LDM otherwise the OG would have been over the top. I also took out the extra Helga hops because it was already showing 28 IBU's just with the Coopers APA kit in it. And I don't want my red ale to be too hoppy.

Crushed and steeped the grains in 1 litre of 70c water for 30 mins. Then put the Amber extract into a large pot and dissolved it in 2lt of cold water. Added the steeped grain water to this, and then put it on the heat. Had it boiling for 30 mins. Put the can of APA into cold water in the FV, and mixed it well. Then added the 'wort', and plenty of fridge water. Sat it in some ice, and got it down to 20c. OG was showing 1.052. Pitched a full sachet of US-05. Will try to keep it under 20c … shouldn't be too hard in Sydney's weather at present.

Had a little taste of the hydrometer sample, and it was sweet and malty, but I still got some lingering bitterness and hop flavour. Glad I didn't hop it up any more.

Thanks, guys, for your help. Will see how she turns out in a few weeks.