Kits and bits BUT no roasted barley -- can I do a red ale?

[Lord Ester]

Hi guys.

So I've been keen to have a shot at a red ale based on a Coopers kit. All the recipes I've looked at have roasted barley as essential. What I have available is the following:

-Coopers Pale Ale, OS Lager, OS Draught, Canadian Blonde, OS Stout extracts
-1kg Briess Sparkling Amber Liquid Extract (built on base malt, caramel 60L and Munich)
-Plenty of LDME
-Some specialty grains (JW crystal; JW choc malt; Simpsons black malt; Special B )
-Dextrose or raw sugar
-Tonnes of Helga hops, and small amounts of Galaxy, Amarillo, Cascade and Willamette.

I have hunted around on the internet for quite a bit and couldn't seem to turn up something that would work for me. I'm still very new to brewing, so a lot of the numbers and concepts are skating over my head. I don't have equipment to mash, but have done a few steeps already.

Not after something really bitter, but more along the lines of malty and smooth. Can it be done with these ingredients? I'd hoped the Briess extract would help out, but it lacks roasted barley too ...

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

-Some specialty grains (JW crystal; JW choc malt; Simpsons black malt; Special B)

There is your answer

 

[Lord Ester]

Thanks, D. Stu … my only problem was: all the recipes I saw (and over the last few days I've seen a few) all want to include roasted barley. Most people seem to say it is predominantly for colour. Beyond colour, is there something that roasted barley will give that can't be achieved with what I have available? Sorry if I'm being dense or something … I have tried to find the answer I'm after, but hadn't been successful to date ...

 

[TimT]

I've always wondered whether you can darken the brew a bit and achieve some of those roasty-toasty red ale flavours by setting aside some of the wort before sparging/adding water and boiling it until its caramelised/has toffee flavours. I've been meaning to try this for some time.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

You only need a tiny amount of RB for colour, Basically does SFA in a red ale apart from add colour. Dark Xtal will give a nice red/copper hue

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Actually it does a liitle bit more than SFA, but you can get the same result using other grains

 

[indica86]

I've always wondered whether you can darken the brew a bit and achieve some of those roasty-toasty red ale flavours by setting aside some of the wort before sparging/adding water and boiling it until its caramelised/has toffee flavours. I've been meaning to try this for some time.

I believe some Scottish brews do that.

OP choc malt, black malt are in the ball park and can be used for similar results.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

That is exactly what the Scottish do for their ales. I tried it with my Pillar of Red once. Did add a different dimension to it. But if you only have 1 kettle it can lengthen the brew day

 

[Lord Ester]

Thanks for this. So with these responses I'm thinking something along the lines of (adapting a little off Coopers' recipe for red ale):

Pale Ale kit
Sparkling amber extract (1kg)
JW crystal 100g steeped
JW choc 50g steeped (taking your suggestion, D. Stu and indica86 that other malts could somewhat substitute on flavour, if not colour)
Hopped for flavour and aroma with Helga

Does that sound close to feasible?

Thanks.

P.S. Tim T … it sounds like you're talking about a partial mash here -- is that correct? At this stage, I'm only playing with extracts and steeping … (at this stage )

 

[indica86]

Partial Mash is using base grains that need to be mashed (enzymes need to be activated to turn the sugars into shorter molecules that are fermentable??), not steeped (soaking to remove the sugars) and adding extract.

Sounds feasible. Will make beer. You will also learn stuff, which is good.

 

[Lord Ester]

Thanks, indica.

Stewy also pointed me to ianH's brewing spreadsheet … there is a lot of black magic in there for me, but I am playing with it, trying to make some sense of things.

Gotta play, gotta fall over, get scratches, get up again … gotta learn! I appreciate the expert help of you fine beer-loving people.

I might also add in 1kg of LDME to get my gravity up to start with. ianH's spreadsheet seems to suggest my SG might be a bit low with what I had suggested, but maybe I'm misreading it.

So it would be:


Pale Ale kit
Sparkling amber extract (1kg)
LDME (1kg)
JW crystal 100g steeped
JW choc 50g steeped (taking your suggestion, D. Stu and indica86 that other malts could somewhat substitute on flavour, if not colour)
Hopped for flavour and aroma with Helga
Filled to 23lt
Fermented with US-05


With very limited temp control here (just the old swamp cooler / wet towel / ice bottle trick), I will try to keep ferment below 22C.

Cheers.

 

[indica86]

Swamp cooler works.
You know you need to strain the grain and boil the liquid?

 

[Lord Ester]

Yep -- thanks indica. I did catch that bit on my hunt for info.

In your former post when you say 'partial mash' we're talking about BIAB here, are we? (At least, as the simplest way to do a mash?)

My understanding was that the crystal and choc should be able to simply steep, and I think that's what you're saying too, isn't it?

 

[indica86]

Yeah mate, steep.
And BIAB is very simple.
I did esky 2 bucket lauter for my first few....

 

[Lord Ester]

Oh dear.

I can see the slope is very slippery!

D.boy Stu -- I Googled your Pillar of Red ale and found your post … noted you had done it with EKG hops. You made a comment about keeping the hops to the front end and middle of the boil (but no later than 20 mins) so as to keep maltiness in focus. Thanks for the tip … I think I would have risked putting in some late addition hops, and getting too much aroma from them, not the malt.

 

[brendo]

You only need a tiny amount of RB for colour, Basically does SFA in a red ale apart from add colour. Dark Xtal will give a nice red/copper hue

Yes you can achieve the same colour using darker crystal malts, but the flavour profile would be completely different. The dark crystals would add a LOT of residual sweetness to achieve the same colour as opposed to the roast barley which would add some dryness. So rather than a red ale, you would really be pushing more into Amber territory with a higher level of residual sweetness. To say that roast barley would do SFA is not really an accurate statement imo.

 

[Lord Ester]

Brendo -- if I am steeping and not mashing, then am I going to get extra residual sugars? I thought that steeping only gave me flavour and colour, but not extra fermentable sugars … or did I miss something here? BTW I always thought 'red ale' and 'amber ale' were pretty much the same thing! Okay, well, it seems you've given me some research to do on the difference between the 2 styles … thanks.

 

[brendo]

Crystal malt has already undergone conversion and if you steep it, you will pull some of the sugar out of it by dissolving it. If nothing else, you will extract flavour along with the colour and the flavour will be quite sweet. By contrast, roast barley is quite dry, so will not add any additional sweetness, but will add. Hell of a lot of colour for a small addition.

Reds and ambers may look similar colour-wise, but the flavour, mouthfeel and aromas are somewhat different - it's all about the contribution of the malts used and their impact on the beer. Nothing wrong with the approaches suggested, but don't fall into the trap of using different coloured malts in different quantities and thinking that you won't have a flavour impact by achieving the same colour value.

 

[TimT]

P.S. Tim T … it sounds like you're talking about a partial mash here -- is that correct? At this stage, I'm only playing with extracts and steeping … (at this stage )

Lord Ester - not really. The principle is the same whether you're doing mash or partial extract or extract.

The trick I describe usually goes by the name of 'caramelising the first runnings' or something like that. It's pretty simple; after you do the mash and drain off the first runnings - which will typically be incredibly sweet and rich as it's low on water and high on sugar - you take a small portion of those runnings and really boil the heck out of them. Basically it has to reach a temp above 100 degrees C, and the sugars will start being of the type you get in fudges and toffees. Will take 10 minutes or so and you'll really notice the liquid change texture, become more syruppy, with some odd looking bubbles that you wouldn't normally see in a boiling liquid. I don't think brewers are so particular about how long they boil this portion as they'll dissolve it back into the wort afterwards anyway.

With extract it's just the same except you're not doing any mash or taking aside the first runnings of a mash. So basically you'd just pour a bit out of the can and boil it until you get those caramel/toffee flavours.

It tastes amazing (so long as you don't put some on your tongue straight after boiling it and fry your tastebuds to a crisp). I've tasted it in one or two homebrews and suspect I've had it in one or two craft beers. Really flavourful addition for some of the richer, malt-heavy beers.

Anyway, perhaps not relevant for your immediate needs but good for down the track.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Yes you can achieve the same colour using darker crystal malts, but the flavour profile would be completely different. The dark crystals would add a LOT of residual sweetness to achieve the same colour as opposed to the roast barley which would add some dryness. So rather than a red ale, you would really be pushing more into Amber territory with a higher level of residual sweetness. To say that roast barley would do SFA is not really an accurate statement imo.

Well Xtal and RB are 2 totally different grains. RB does SFA in regards to taste, not colour, especially compared to Xtal