Kegging For Beginners

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Georgedgerton

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Having now had a few brews in kegs (after 40 years of bottling - not sure whether I'm bragging or apologizing) I can definitely recommend to beginners DON'T force carb your kegs. Go down the slow road, gas them up at serving pressure, wait about 10 days and hey walla no problems, perfect beer every pour.

I hear howls of dismay from all of those brewers who have have been force carbing their brews for yonks without problems, and it is true once you have an experienced handle on things you can do what you like and get away with it.

For sure I am not the first newbie kegger to get it all wrong and believe me until you know exactly what your doing, have a few bottles in the fridge to keep you happy and save yourself some grief by gassing those kegs at serving pressure.
 
Very valid, as long as you have the time to wait! :D

I tend to gas up at serbing pressure also most of the time too.
 
Without boring everyone for too long, the other thing I think is worthwhile saying is with your first attempts at kegging there is also a fair chance you haven't quite got some other aspects of your system right either. Example: line length X diameter.

So often what happens (particularly if you have the forced carbonation wrong) you then frantically start lurching all over the place, screwing the tits of the regulator, letting gas out the keg, putting gas back in the keg, stuffing with line length and finally contemplate suicide. Fortunately most just get on the forum and annoy the bejesus out of those who know.

So in all, if you carb at serving pressure then you know you at least have that bit right and if you still have issues you can start looking elsewhere before slashing your wrists.

Hope my experience has been of some help out there.
 
Force Conditioning (Carbonation)
Rather than not recommending force carbonation, (I prefer education to fear motivation) it may be better for a beginner to learn about the process first and thereby reduce possible problems. I think what you are trying to say is not to use excessive pressure during force carbonation - always good advice.
I hope these few tips help.
If you have a fermenter that can be pressurised you could close the valve with about one degree plato (say 1.004 of SG) left for the fermentation and force carb with "natural " CO2 . Ross has and adjustable PRV with a gas connect and dial pressure gage http://www.craftbrewer.com/shop/details.asp?PID=1069 so you can dial in the correct pressure. Bottle with a counter pressure bottle filler or keg. I conceed not that many home brewers will have stainless conicals that are pressure rated.
When you bottle you add a measured dose of fermentables to your beer to allow the residual yeast to re-commence fermentation in the bottle and create the carbonation in a bottle-conditioned beer.This method is tried and true but completely ignores the following factors:

1) Yeast viability. After fermenting your beer, especially if it's a higher gravity beer of 1.060 or more a lenghty lagering your yeast may be tired out and might not be up to the task.​
2) Sediment. Good for you, but it's not pretty. This is probably the single biggest turn-off to the average non-educated beer drinker. Some people dont like their beers to look like cream of chicken soup.​
3) History.Some home brewers shudder at the idea of deviating from the Reinheitsgebot (German purity law of 1516 ) and would rather prime by krausening.​
4) Fermentation temperature profile. This is the amount of CO2 that is already disolved in the green beer post fermentation. This depends on the temperature profile of the ferment.​
5) Carbonation level required for the beer style being produced usualy expressed in terms of volumes​
6) It is very important that the beer has completely finished fermenting (stable SG) and there are no residual fermentable sugars left. Bottling too early, typically results in excessive carbonation, or even bottle bombs. You should also be aware that some beers,especialy darker or other full-bodied beers, may contain some long-chain sugars (dextrins limit dextrins) that will ferment very slowly, leading to a gradual increase in carbonation over a period of months.

Force carbonating will allow you to hit your desired level every time, without exception - If done correctly
There is usualy a tendancy for homebrewers to want to carbonate ASAP. While this can be achieved very rapidly indeed, it totaly ignores the other very important thing that is happening at the same time - MATURATION. This is the developing and mellowing of flavours produced during fermentation and takes much longer to achieve - perhaps 2 - 8 weeks. So if our beer is going to take this long to develop why the rush to carbonate?​
There are two methods of force conditioning (carbonating) your beer in a Homebrew keg. The patient method (recommended) and the impatient method (she'll be right no worries, I'm thirsty NOW - you know the drill). The patient method will always give you the most consistant results. It's based strictly on physics so you can do it over and over and achieve the same results every time.​
The amount of CO that will dissolve into your beer is dependent mostly on two factors, temperature and pressure. This is a temperature pressure equalibrium - for a given pressure, the amont of CO2 dissolved increases with lowering temperature. For a given temperature the amount of gas increases with increased pressure.Equilibrium means the same amount of CO is diffusing out of the beer as is being dissolved back into solution.​
Generally ales tend to be carbonated at the lower end, lagers higher. The amount of CO dissolved in beer is most often referred to in terms of volumes. Volumes of CO are defined as the volume the CO gas would occupy if it were removed from the beer at atmospheric pressure and 0C, compared to the original volume of beer. Most beers in Australia contain roughly 2.4-2.7 volumes of carbon dioxide, or about 5 odd grams per litre. This means that if all the carbon dioxide in one litre of beer were expanded at 0C and at one atmosphere of pressure, its volume would be 2.4 -2.7 litres. Try it with a stubbie and a balloon! Use VB that way you wont waste good beer :lol:​
The Patient Method

1) Clean and sanitise your keg thoroughly. I always purge the Keg with a little CO to exclude oxygen.​
2) Gently rack your beer into the keg and filter if required.Dont just open the tap, use a tube to fill you keg from the bottom up.​
3) Replace the lid on the keg and re-pressurise again to say 10 psi, let it sit for a minute, bleed the pressure off again to re-purge (also known as 'burping' your keg).This step is about reducing oxygen exposure of beer.​
4) Determine the temperature that your beer will be during carbonation, this is usualy going to be the temperature that the beer will be served at (unless you have lots of fridges) and set your regulator accordingly.For a temperature of about 2 Deg.c, 10 or 11 PSI is all that is required! It will reach its saturation point if the temperature is right, and the regulator will shut down altogether and never over-carbonate. Allowing sufficient maturing time will allow plenty of time for conditioning. I have a chart I use if this will help anyone? Let me know, its not on this PC, I can post it tomorrow. It has PSI and KPA, Farenheight and Celcius.​
If your dispensing pressure is the same as the equalibrium pressure required for the selected beer style and your system, then you are indeed a lucky brewer.​
The Impatient Method

1) Follow steps 1, 2 and 3 from the patient method and chill to desired temperature - Remember beer will not absorb sufficient CO at room temperature without excessive pressure.​
2) Set your regulator to (insert unnesessarily high number here) psi and pressurise your keg until you hear/feel the flow of gas stop, and shake/roll your keg vigorously for 5 minutes. Alternatively lay your keg on its side and gently rock the keg, if you have the gas entering at the bottom you will hear the gas rushing into the keg. Stop rocking and soon the gas will stop, rock again and gas will once again flow. I'm sure a cursory search of this site will show many methods like this. Rocking increases the liquid/gas interface suface area where gas adsorption happens.​
3) Repeat step 2 until:​
a) Your beer will receive no more carbonation at this pressure setting at which time it will be over-carbonated.​
b)You die of a massive heart attack. B)​
c) You fluke the correct carbonation level. Hey-it happens quite often with practice right?​
Obviously this method should only be used as a last resort. Even if it doesn't cause you grievous bodily harm, it leads to rough handling of your precious homebrew and uncertain carbonation levels.​
Remember that the gas can be connected to the black beverage disconnect (out) for cornies (you will need a black connector ) John guest connectors make it easy if you are swapping. I have a t-piece on the gas line with a black and a grey as requierd so that the CO bubbles up through the beer.​
You can also use a carbonation keg lid that has a 0.5 micron stainless steel air-stone at the bottom of the keg to introduce the CO as a very fine stream of bubbles that have a larger surface area, that will rise slowly in the keg and adsorb much faster.Carbonation time with the carbonation keg lid can be reduced to as little as one hour at the correct temperature!​
A big word of caution here - if your cylinder runs out, beer can return via the gas line and ruin your regulator. This method is called reverse booting and has ruined many an expensive regulator. Fit a non return valve in you gas line to be safe. The Harris gauges I have are the 802cdr2 dual pressure and are supposed to have a built in non return valve - I still fitted a JG NRV​
If you find you need to go from primary to drinking kegged beer in less than two weeks, you need to sort your life out :) and get a little further ahead with you brews.​

 
My goodness! 3 posts and you bang out that beauty!

Nice!

(ignore my post count, i lost my login/password from years ago!)
 
I personally think that recommending force carbing to beginners stupid. I wish people hadn't recommended it to me.

There's no way for a beginner to really know what is under carbed, what's over carbed, what line lengths are too long, what other issues cause foaming etc.

Better off they get an accurate temperature measurement, work out what level of carbonation they want, set the reg to the right level, and wait 10 days. Then you're pretty damn sure the keg is carbed right and you can if nothing else reduce the serving pressure right down, fill a glass, and see what you think. Then it's about choosing the right line length that allows the desired pour speed at the carbonation pressure.
 
I personally think that recommending force carbing to beginners stupid. I wish people hadn't recommended it to me.

There's no way for a beginner to really know what is under carbed, what's over carbed, what line lengths are too long, what other issues cause foaming etc.

Better off they get an accurate temperature measurement, work out what level of carbonation they want, set the reg to the right level, and wait 10 days. Then you're pretty damn sure the keg is carbed right and you can if nothing else reduce the serving pressure right down, fill a glass, and see what you think. Then it's about choosing the right line length that allows the desired pour speed at the carbonation pressure.

Hi
You are mostly correct, however I think you are mixing Force carbonation with reticulation balancing. Different issues to be solved independantly - Yes?
Actualy, I belive I mentioned temperature and pressure in my reply to the original post. What you are realy saying is that you think beginers are stupid - it all comes down to availability of information.
Saying a beginer cant handle the truth is a just a little bit elitist.
A beginner can at least be educated in the mechanics of the process, then he can KNOW rather than go through some sort of right of passage that leads to arbitatry over gassed or under gassed beer until he has paid his due? Knowlege is power - empower you self!
Let me give you an example
A newbie fails at some task...
He askes a question...
And is told... "I personally think that recommending force carbing to beginners stupid"

How does this help?

Rather than simply increasing your post count you could perhaps help the guy!
Please understand I dont want to start a flame war.
What I do want is for detailed explanation, open to peer review for questions asked by anyone.


As for other factors, reducing the variables will help you target issues, I think. If you have a baseline for carbonation levels it will tend to highlight balancing issues.
I was a cellerman in a pub that had a total of 1.6Km of beer line, no balance issues, no carb issues! - cleaned every week (mostly while the band was packing up saturday night /sunday morning)6 bars.
10 days is somewhat arbitary and does not take flavour develpoment issues into account, but of course could be perfectly ok for your situation.
Brewing is a long chain of compromises, we choose what works for us and the quality we will accept.
 
I'm sorry but I didn't read your original post and I'm not going to read much of that one either. If you can't say what you need to say in as few words as possible you have a communication issue IMO.

To clarify, my point was that the 'Ross method' etc of force carbing in 50 seconds is great but should not be recommended for people new to kegging.

You can not read any amount of books and know instinctively whether a beer is overcarbed / undercarbed or you have an issue with temperatures of glass / beer line or beer line length.

I am not implying that people new to kegging are 'stupid'. They just lack in experience (this should REALLY go without saying).
 
I'm sorry but I didn't read your original post and I'm not going to read much of that one either. If you can't say what you need to say in as few words as possible you have a communication issue IMO.

To clarify, my point was that the 'Ross method' etc of force carbing in 50 seconds is great but should not be recommended for people new to kegging.

You can not read any amount of books and know instinctively whether a beer is overcarbed / undercarbed or you have an issue with temperatures of glass / beer line or beer line length.

I am not implying that people new to kegging are 'stupid'. They just lack in experience (this should REALLY go without saying).

Carbonation is NOT instinctive but can be learned Perhaps you should read the post, do I have a communication issue, or you a reading limit. How many words will you give me? I'll be happy to try again given your limits.
 
I'm sorry but I didn't read your original post and I'm not going to read much of that one either. If you can't say what you need to say in as few words as possible you have a communication issue IMO.

To clarify, my point was that the 'Ross method' etc of force carbing in 50 seconds is great but should not be recommended for people new to kegging.

You can not read any amount of books and know instinctively whether a beer is overcarbed / undercarbed or you have an issue with temperatures of glass / beer line or beer line length.

I am not implying that people new to kegging are 'stupid'. They just lack in experience (this should REALLY go without saying).


probably valid points both sides of the debate, i however from personal experience ""i should say lack of it" tried the forced carb idea the same day i set my kegs up, bad move although i could drink and play with my taps, regulator, fridge temp, i had no idea WTF i was doing, i had foam everywhere and not much beer but after a week or so i went back to square one, set temp/pressure leave it for a week and all was good, easy, but then for the guys that know their stuff i am sure they can get away with it.
cheers
fergi
 
I'm only new to kegging. Just kegged my 5th beer.

I've used the "Ross method" everytime and never had an issue apart from beer being under-carbed which is easily fixed by cranking the gas back up and rocking for another 10-15 seconds and leaving for another hour.

I've only had to re-carb once on a couple of beers.

All my beers have ended up in the glass with a nice head and usually has about 3-4mm left on the last mouthful.
 
I personally think that recommending force carbing to beginners stupid. I wish people hadn't recommended it to me.

There's no way for a beginner to really know what is under carbed, what's over carbed, what line lengths are too long, what other issues cause foaming etc.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it stupid, it's up to the person kegging how they go about it and it is down to the advice giver and their experience with the situation wether they'll recomend it or not. I have just finished my kegging setup and have a beer in the fridge ready to be my first to be kegged and will be going the forced carbed way.

Also there's a good worksheet (excel) from CrozDogs here that I've attached that apparently is of great use when balancing a system and was recomended to me by Skippy.

As far as "beginners" knowing wether or not something is over or undercarbed is just not true in every case, I mean you can overcarb your beer in the bottle and vice versa and if you dont know if soemthing is overcarbed then maybe brewing isn't for you, I reckon it's more of an "ok, I have a problem but don't know how to fix it" than anything else.

In any case I really don't think we should discourage people from using certain methods, as we are all aware what works for one person might not work for the next and if something does go wrong then there is always answers from all of you great blokes out on the interwebs.

Aaron

View attachment co2_and_keg_balancing_v1.1.xls
 
I wouldn't go so far as to call it stupid, it's up to the person kegging how they go about it and it is down to the advice giver and their experience with the situation wether they'll recomend it or not. I have just finished my kegging setup and have a beer in the fridge ready to be my first to be kegged and will be going the forced carbed way.

Also there's a good worksheet (excel) from CrozDogs here that I've attached that apparently is of great use when balancing a system and was recomended to me by Skippy.

As far as "beginners" knowing wether or not something is over or undercarbed is just not true in every case, I mean you can overcarb your beer in the bottle and vice versa and if you dont know if soemthing is overcarbed then maybe brewing isn't for you, I reckon it's more of an "ok, I have a problem but don't know how to fix it" than anything else.

In any case I really don't think we should discourage people from using certain methods, as we are all aware what works for one person might not work for the next and if something does go wrong then there is always answers from all of you great blokes out on the interwebs.

Aaron

You haven't kegged a beer in your life? Why are you giving advice?
 
That is exactly my point.

Does this mean you read the post?

Any method including the "Ross method" needs to obey the laws of physics in this neck of the universe.
No more no less
One hour or 50 second carbonation is fine - It will just be green carbonated beer until sufficient maturation time has passed

Read my post then my Sig
 
Does this mean you read the post?

Any method including the "Ross method" needs to obey the laws of physics in this neck of the universe.
No more no less
One hour or 50 second carbonation is fine - It will just be green carbonated beer until sufficient maturation time has passed

Read my post then my Sig

I read the short post that I quoted. I will NOT read your long posts above. Your short posts aren't making much sense and I don't expect your long ones to be any better.

For example this little gem above, what the hell are you on about? Laws of physics? What law? Why are you bringing it up? It is well known that if you set the right pressure for the right beer style at your chosen beer temperature, you will carb your beer to the correct level over a 1-2 week period. Once the beer is carbed to this correct level, it will stop. It will not overcarb, even if you let it sit for another 1-2 weeks.

On the other hand with force carbing, it is VERY easy to over or under carb a beer. I mean it doesn't even take into consideration the temperature you're serving your beer at or the style of the beer. It's just a rough as guts way to get some level of carbonation going quickly. It's great but I would never recommend it to people new to kegging and I really wish no one recommended it to me when I was new to kegging.
 
You haven't kegged a beer in your life? Why are you giving advice?

Because that's what forums are for.... I passed on a worksheet that was suggested to me and said that if somone has problems with a method then there are people here that can help. It's not as though I'm telling anyone how to actually go through the whole process of kegging.

Aaron
 
It's become apparently to me (after skimming the pseudo-intellectual crap above) that pyrobrewer has misread or misunderstood the OP and is in fact recommending the exact same strategy as the OP and myself.
 
Because that's what forums are for.... I passed on a worksheet that was suggested to me and said that if somone has problems with a method then there are people here that can help. It's not as though I'm telling anyone how to actually go through the whole process of kegging.

Aaron

I would personally suggest you use that worksheet to carb your keg the slow way for the first time and then once you know your system back to front take some short cuts. Particularly if you have multiple kegs and you have a slow-carbed keg as a control handy for when you force-carb, using for example the Ross method, the second keg.
 

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