Is A Protein Rest Useful With Modern Uk Malts?

[Bribie G]

Doing BIAB in an electric urn I regularly do stepped mashes and mashouts and I'm going to do a table or spreadsheet for various mash schedules using a 2400 watt urn and put them up on the forum.

I'm wondering if a protein rest is actually useful nowadays with well modified malts, and is there any place for a protein rest with malts such as Bairds or TF malts? Or is this mainly of benefit with malts such as Aussies and Germans?

 

[raven19]

From what I have read on this topic, I would say its of not much use nowadays with the well modified malts available to the homebrewer.

However if using raw wheat or raw barley in the grist then yes.

(great to catch up last week too fella!)

 

[jonocarroll]

Protein rest with well modified (modern) malts; a recipe for decreased body and zero head retention.

+1 to raven's advice.

 

[RdeVjun]

+1 to QB's +1, not with modern ale malts for the reasons already stated. Modern lager malts might be another story though... :unsure:

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Doing BIAB in an electric urn I regularly do stepped mashes and mashouts and I'm going to do a table or spreadsheet for various mash schedules using a 2400 watt urn and put them up on the forum.

I'm wondering if a protein rest is actually useful nowadays with well modified malts, and is there any place for a protein rest with malts such as Bairds or TF malts? Or is this mainly of benefit with malts such as Aussies and Germans?

No benefit on English style malts, these malts are highly modified and hence most of the protein is dealt with during malting.
GB

 

[raven19]

Adding to this, I am leaning now more towards a longer mash moving more from 60 to 90 minute mashes, helps my conversion nicely.

 

[Bribie G]

What I suspected, and yes I always do 90 mins now with BIAB, the urn's lagged and isn't going to go anywhere. So single infusion isothemals with my UK ales.

Raven: the man who has doughed into BribieG's urn
And it went very smoothly.

 

[Bretto77]

What I suspected, and yes I always do 90 mins now with BIAB, the urn's lagged and isn't going to go anywhere. So single infusion isothemals with my UK ales.

Raven: the man who has doughed into BribieG's urn
And it went very smoothly.

Hi BribeG,
I'm curious what diffrence you are getting with your 90min mash. My efficiency is about 70% with a 60min mash, would definately go longer as would be nice to get it closer to 75%. Your thoughts?

 

[jonocarroll]

I'm curious what diffrence you are getting with your 90min mash. My efficiency is about 70% with a 60min mash, would definately go longer as would be nice to get it closer to 75%. Your thoughts?

You're unlikely to get that gain by an extra half hour mashing. Most of the conversion is actually done in the first 15-30 minutes anyway. Have a go at raising the mash temp to good mashout temps and sparging slower in several batches (or just the former if you BIAB I guess).

 

[Back Yard Brewer]

Raven: the man who has doughed into BribieG's urn
And it went very smoothly.

Umm sounds quite....... well, um "sensual" You Qld brewers have a lot to answer for!! :lol:

 

[felten]

Now you know why they're called banana benders

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Traditional English malts are designed for Traditional English brewers - who traditionally were doing isothermal mashes. So the maltsters would have been doing a piss poor job if they made malts that needed a protien rest.

However, while doing a full "my malt is undermodified crap" protien rest on your hot English malt might well cause quality issues - I find that a short (5 mins maximum) rest at 55 not only does not hurt, but in fact helps head formation and retention - even with these malts. It also pops my efficiency up by a little tiny bit.

In BIAB - A longer mash can help a bit if you give your mash a bit of a stir or two in the last half. Raising to and rest at mash out will help a bit with efficiency - but what will absolutely help noticeably... is if you do a continuously stirred ramp to mash out over 10 minutes or so. No lifting of your bag and heating up under it. Bag stays where it is, heat goes on, stir stir stir as the temperature rises - hit mashout temps. Rest it for a minute if you want to and then pull the bag.

Its NOT just the higher temperature - its the combination of the physical action of stirring, the slower rise to the higher temperature + the final higher temperature that improves your mashing efficiency.

Skipping the P rest isn't going to hurt anything with english malts - skipping a mashout ramp is throwing away extract and might IMO possibly lead to clarity issues in your beer from unconverted carbohydrate. BIAB specific.

 

[Benniee]

However, while doing a full "my malt is undermodified crap" protien rest on your hot English malt might well cause quality issues - I find that a short (5 mins maximum) rest at 55 not only does not hurt, but in fact helps head formation and retention - even with these malts. It also pops my efficiency up by a little tiny bit.

I'm certainly in this camp. For a lot of my beers I include a short (5-10 min) protein rest around 52-55. Occasionally I do skip this step and invariably my efficiency suffers. My mash/lauter tun is pretty low tech (esky with a s/s braid).

When I do a prot rest I usually end up with a thinner mash at the sacc. rest - so it's probably not a complete/fair test. I probably need to so some thin single infusion brews to see if I get similar efficiency numbers as I do with a prot. rest.

I think John Palmer mentions the efficiency increases associated with lower temp steps in How To Brew (sorry I can't be more specific but I don't have it in front of me at the moment).

Benniee

 

[np1962]

I think most posters have failed to answer the original question, Is a protein rest 'USEFUL'with modern UK malts?
Most have given advice on whether a protein rest is 'NECESSARY'
Concensus, and my own opinion, seems to suggest that it is not necessary to do a protein rest with UK malts.
But 'useful'?
TB's post suggests that a short lower temp rest can be useful for several reasons, not the least of which is head formation and retention.
Efficiency? I doubt whether most of us would notice an increase. Better, as TB notes, to look to the other end of the mash regime for this particularly for BIAB and also for batch spargers.
in short, IMO a short 'protein' rest, if that is what you want to call it, can still be useful with modern UK malts.

Conversion times have been mentioned also in this thread, if you want to know how quickly modern malts convert ask you HBS owner for a look at the Certificate of Analysis for the malts you are using, some of you may be surprised.

Cheers
Nige

 

[bcp]

Building on the original question...

For BIAB - in my case in an urn - you'd have to mash in at 55c, then lift the bag and heat to mash temperature. Right? It seems like a lot of hassle for a bit of head retention and body that I can get in other ways. A little bit more efficiency as well - when i can throw in a little bit more grain for about 35cents & not stuff around hauling up my bag.

 

[schooey]

I think most posters have failed to answer the original question, Is a protein rest 'USEFUL'with modern UK malts?
Most have given advice on whether a protein rest is 'NECESSARY'
Concensus, and my own opinion, seems to suggest that it is not necessary to do a protein rest with UK malts.
But 'useful'?
TB's post suggests that a short lower temp rest can be useful for several reasons, not the least of which is head formation and retention.
Efficiency? I doubt whether most of us would notice an increase. Better, as TB notes, to look to the other end of the mash regime for this particularly for BIAB and also for batch spargers.
in short, IMO a short 'protein' rest, if that is what you want to call it, can still be useful with modern UK malts.

Conversion times have been mentioned also in this thread, if you want to know how quickly modern malts convert ask you HBS owner for a look at the Certificate of Analysis for the malts you are using, some of you may be surprised.

Cheers
Nige

Glad you cleared that up for us, Nige... :blink:

 

[np1962]

Glad you cleared that up for us, Nige... :blink:

Cheers Big Fella, when you back for a beer or three?

 

[schooey]

Probably not for a while, Nige... new job means I don't travel to that neck of the woods anymore. I hear AABC is down that way next year, so I'm thinking on planning a trip for that one :beer:

Sorry for the OT... :beer:

 

[under]

Looking at what Thirsty has stated a few posts above, I totally agree on the BIAB comments.

Ive have been BIAB for a while and I have found a few thing on efficiencies. I generally mash for 90 mins. I usually gain 10% eff (78-80%) by doing the steps below -

- Mash in to desired temp (say 66). If 66 was the required temp I usually heat my water to around 68. Add bag then slowly add grain whilst stirring
- Give it a good stir then cover and let rest for 30min. Give another stir. Rest 30min, stir. Rest 30min, stir.
- At the end of the 90min mash, turn on burner whilst heating stir the mash until you hit 77-78. Turn off burner. Cover and rest for 5-10min.
- Turn on burner, stir for a minute or three then pull the bag. Let it drain over the pot while heating, until the running liquid slows down enough and becomes managable, then remove and hang over a bucket. Give it a good squeeze, dump squeezed liquid into boil pot.

I find it easy to do because you need to heat up the wort to boil anyways, your killing two birds with one stone. You gaining the benifit of a mashout/sparge whilst heating the mash for the boil and its only adding 10-15 mins to your brew day.

 

[jbirbeck]

damn right a short protein rest can be useful. A short protein rest results in good head and a nice body

But that's just my experience (and TB)...so if you think its too big a hassle, leave it out.

A long protein rest is neither useful nor necessary - probably detrimental BUT I can't say I've ever done it ever with supposed undermodified malt...