Is 4-5 Degrees Low Enough For Cold Conditioning?

[st.sloth]

Howdy folks.

Got me an Amarillo Pale Ale that's had enough time in secondary. Would like to cold condition this, but haven't got a dedicated fridge for the task yet. I'd probably be able to fit a cube into the serving fridge - which sits at about 5 degrees.

Would there even be any benefit to this? Or should i just go straight to bulk priming in the keg?

Cheers, Louie

 

[bullsneck]

It would depend on your yeast.

I see you've made an Ale, so I'm assuming an ale yeast was used. That being the case, 5deg would be out of the yeasts temperature range. A lower temp would send them to sleep, therefore dropping them out of suspension.

I like to cold condition, IMHO it works well and leaves the beer quite clear (from yeast, not chill haze). I'd do it still, maybe leave it for a bit longer, though (more than 24hrs, and up to 4 days).

 

[hockadays]

If most of the yeast and trub has dropped out in the secondary then bulk prime.

 

[matti]

CCing at 5 degrees will take a little longer but well worth it.
About a a week for ales with high flocculating ale yeast is plenty.

I had my pale ale gelatine fined and CCed for two weeks at 3-5 degrees.

 

[st.sloth]

yeah, this was the brew:

2 x 1.5kg Coopers LME tins (pale)
500g Dextrose
40g Amarillo (pellets)@ 20 min
40g Amarillo (pellets)@ 10 min

Safale US-05

by 'high fermenting' yeast, do you mean 'top fermenting yeast? ie ale yeasts?

and just to clear up what is probably quite obvious - the colder the cold conditioning, the more effective it is in pulling the yeast out of suspension? and lager yeasts require or at least benefit from an even colder cc - ie 1-2 degrees?

 

[phonos]

Matti said 'high flocculating, not 'fermenting'.

Basically, if its a yeast which is good at settling to the bottom of your fermenter after finishing fermentation, its a 'high flocculator'.

Cold conditioning can be more than just helping the yeast to drop out, although that is a big part of what it does. One of the reasons that a lower temperature is suggested for lagers is that the yeasts work at a lower temperature. The other reason is that lagers benefit more from cold conditioning because they generally have a more delicate flavour as compared to ales, and hence the effects of cold conditioning are more noticeable and beneficial.

 

[hockadays]

Another thing to consider if you CC is that you may have to add fresh yeast when it comes time to bottle if it drops really clear from the CC.

 

[smudge]

Hi st.sloth,

If your beer is in a secondary, you have already transferred once. Move it to a cube in your serving fridge and you have transferred again.

Every time you transfer your beer, you risk some sort of contamination.

I reckon that the only beers that should be "racked" to secondary should be beers racked onto fruit, oak etc.

The big question you need to ask yourself is, "What do I want cold conditioning to do to my beer?" Why are you doing it?

You are brewing an ale. Drink it early and drink it often! If you want to CC to drop the yeast etc (ie clarity issues) go for it. If
you want to CC to improve the flavour of your beer, a lot of other considerations come into play.

You talk about bulk priming in a keg. Does that mean you don't have access to forced CO2 carbonation. If so, the next thing
on your wish list should be a regulator and some sort of CO2 cylinder.

Transferring to a secondary fermenter in some instances can be beneficial. I can't see any benefit putting an Amarillo Ale in
secondary as long as it has spent enough time in the primary fermenter.

Cheers,
smudge

 

[st.sloth]

from my limited experience of recipes i've done where the hops are the star player - it's taken at least a month after kegging for the 'hop tea' intensity to calm down and mellow to a pleasant level. i figure i may as well be doing something else with this extended waiting period and clear it up.

i'm rotating three kegs, with a reg and CO2, but i'm only drinking one at a time, so have the time to bulk prime the others in waiting.

but in hindsight - i'd agree with you on your last point smudge - it was in primary long enough. shoulda gone straight to CC.

"Another thing to consider if you CC is that you may have to add fresh yeast when it comes time to bottle if it drops really clear from the CC." - as i am bulk priming the kegs, this is an issue for me. how can you tell??? certain amount of time at a certain temp??

really appreciating the input. Louie

 

[manticle]

Hi st.sloth,

If your beer is in a secondary, you have already transferred once. Move it to a cube in your serving fridge and you have transferred again.

Every time you transfer your beer, you risk some sort of contamination.

I reckon that the only beers that should be "racked" to secondary should be beers racked onto fruit, oak etc.

The big question you need to ask yourself is, "What do I want cold conditioning to do to my beer?" Why are you doing it?

You are brewing an ale. Drink it early and drink it often! If you want to CC to drop the yeast etc (ie clarity issues) go for it. If
you want to CC to improve the flavour of your beer, a lot of other considerations come into play.

Transferring to a secondary fermenter in some instances can be beneficial. I can't see any benefit putting an Amarillo Ale in
secondary as long as it has spent enough time in the primary fermenter.

Cheers,
smudge

A couple of issues with this post.

1. Not all ales benefit from being drunk early. Many need/benefit from ageing.
2. Yeast plays a major role in the flavour of beer. How anyone could think that having less in suspension when drinking has no effect on beer flavour makes me scratch my head. Clarity is more than looking pretty and cold conditioning (which I do for almost every brew to some extent) helps with maturation of flavours.

I also rack almost every beer to a secondary vessel and have not yet had an infection resulting from doing so. Have you?

I agree fully with the idea that most methods should be done with an understanding of why they are done and what you expect from it.

 

[losp]

i thought the golden rule was to take off 10 degrees from primary and that is your secondary temp. Wrong?

 

[smudge]

A couple of issues with this post.

1. Not all ales benefit from being drunk early. Many need/benefit from ageing.
2. Yeast plays a major role in the flavour of beer. How anyone could think that having less in suspension when drinking has
no effect on beer flavour makes me scratch my head. Clarity is more than looking pretty and cold conditioning (which I do for
almost every brew to some extent) helps with maturation of flavours.

I also rack almost every beer to a secondary vessel and have not yet had an infection resulting from doing so. Have you?

I agree fully with the idea that most methods should be done with an understanding of why they are done and what you expect
from it.

Sorry Manticle, I meant that THIS ale should be drunk early. OP indicated that it was an Amarillo APA, so I assumed some late
hopping to get the flavour and aroma that is usual in this style. Condition it too long and a lot of this character can drop out.
I agree that plenty of ales benefit from CC'ing or ageing and some from long periods of same.

My comment about yeast was that if the OP was CC'ing just for clarity issues, "go for it". If flavour was the reason, more things
come into play. ie dropping out of poyphenols, loss of hop character, rack off the yeast too early and possible acetaldehyde
issues, possible (minor but there) of autolysis etc etc etc

One thing though about yeast. Yeast itself tastes like, well, yeast. It is the byproducts of fermentation that give the yeast
derived flavours, not the taste of the yeast itself. Filter all the yeast out and most of these esters etc remain. Taste a dozen
Whitelab vials and they'll all taste fairly similar (I'm guessing here though - haven't tried it). Like yeast.

My process is fairly solid and infections don't concern me too much. But the sanitising of another container and transfer hoses
etc is too much of a pain in the arse for me. My ales stay on the yeast for about 3 weeks, my lagers for 4-5 weeks and then
they are transferred to kegs where they stay at about 1*C until I want to carbonate. No right or wrong, just my way.

Cheers,
smudge

 

[rackemup]

I can see the use of crash chilling to drop out excess yeast from a low flocculating variety if your going to force carb in a keg, but if you bottle, the yeast will just come back due to the addition of priming sugar anyway so whats the point? am i missing something here? I dont rack to secondary and 95% of my beers have only the thinnest layer of yeast on the bottom of the bottle which after 3-4 weeks in the bottle is so compact that i can pour out all the beer without any yeast coming with it. crash chilling to drop out yeast, then adding more yeast to carbonate just seems plain silly to me

 

[muckey]

the yeast is never fully gone from the beer unless you use the right filter. If you crash chill to drop out the yeast you will still end up with yeast sediment in the bottles but it should be far less than if you dont crash chill.

 

[Ronin]

One thing though about yeast. Yeast itself tastes like, well, yeast. It is the byproducts of fermentation that give the yeast
derived flavours, not the taste of the yeast itself. Filter all the yeast out and most of these esters etc remain. Taste a dozen
Whitelab vials and they'll all taste fairly similar (I'm guessing here though - haven't tried it). Like yeast.

Happy to be corrected, but I was under the impression that certain molecules adsorb to the yeast cells during fermentation, implying that yeast post-fermentation would taste quite different to yeast pre-fermentation. i.e. CCing would drop out more than yeast flavours.

I've made similar Amarillo based APAs with 1272, and the taste immensly better after about a month in the fridge. I'm sure 1-2 weeks CCing would not effect the aroma/flavour hops too much?

Could this be a difference of what 'early' is? A wheat beer is drunk early, and APA could do with some CCing to clean it up and smooth it out a bit.

My advice to the OP is to CC it for a month or so. It'll be a better beer for it.

IMHO only of course.

James

 

[rackemup]

the yeast is never fully gone from the beer unless you use the right filter. If you crash chill to drop out the yeast you will still end up with yeast sediment in the bottles but it should be far less than if you dont crash chill.

how much yeast are we talking about? my beer is always crystal clear by the time i come to bottling (no secondary or chilling) and after secondary fermentation theres only the thinnest layer of yeast on the bottom ~1mm
I havn't seen too many other homebrews so i dont know what is the 'normal' amount of yeast to expect, but for some reason it sounds like alot more than what im getting.
how much should you expect after crash chilling? without crash chilling?

 

[muckey]

sounds like you're getting about the right amount of yeast for bottling a clear beer. the yeast floccs quicker if its cold than if it's left at ferment temp so unless you let the beer clear first (and it certainly sounds like you do) you'll heve the product of secondary fermentation + anything elase that hasn't already flocc'ed out.

 

[rackemup]

ok, thanks for clearing that up