Increased Efficiency

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Ronin

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I've done about 20 AG beers now, and have been averaging about 70% efficiency into the boiler using domestic malts (powells, JW, even weyermann now I think on it).

I used marris otter for the last 4 brews over the last fortnight, and for the first 2 I got 90% into the boiler, and the last 2 I got 95% (ended up with some stronger beers, not bad considering one was a RIS). I did play around with the minerals in the last 2, but I think it was the malts that got the higher efficiency. I looked through my brew log in beersmith, and the couple of times I've used marris otter previously I got higher efficiency.

I've done a search, but couldn't find anything. Has anyone else seen this effect? It really offsets the higher cost of the malt.

Cheers,

James
 
The change in your salts could have made an effect on pH and increased efficiency.
 
The change in your salts could have made an effect on pH and increased efficiency.

I thought that might have been the case too...but I didn't add any salts for the first 2. I guess the next time I do a beer with the weyermanns pilsner malt it'll let me know if it was the marris otter. 20% increase seems a bit much, not that I'm complaining mind, just wanted to know if anyone else had seen this effect.
 
Yes. The beer I currently have in cubes was MO and it provided higher gravity than expected. I don't always weigh my grain, I use the "PoMo Bucket Method" for most beers, so I can't tell you the actual efficiencies. However, a bucket of IMC or JW Ale gets me 1.050 in a 20L batch. I used a bucket and a quarter of MO and got 34L at 1.056 with a similar grain bill.

I doubt a bit of calcium in your water could alter your efficiency by that much.

How do you crush? Fine or coarse? I ask because I've been doing some reading on floating mashes recently and find (anecdotally) that MO float better than other malts, presumably because of more air gaps in the endosperm of the berry, which, according to some recent reading (thanks Scotty) encourages better water access to the starches in the kernel leading to better conversion.

If you crush to a powder, this is not the case, but a coarse crack with MO will get a floating mash, lots of water into the endosperm and great conversion and efficiency.
 
I get the grain crushed for me when I buy it.

Now that you guys mention it, though, I did change suppliers for these 4 beers. I got these ones from Craftbrewer, and up until now I've always got them from either grain and grape or greensborough home brewing. I've bought Marris otter from these places before, but never got over 80% efficiency (which was still better than JW or powells).

Maybe a combination of a different crush, mineral addition and the grain? Whatever it is, I'll keep doing it. It'll be interesting to see what happens when I order some other malts from Craftbrewer.

Thanks everyone
 
I get the grain crushed for me when I buy it.

Now that you guys mention it, though, I did change suppliers for these 4 beers. I got these ones from Craftbrewer, and up until now I've always got them from either grain and grape or greensborough home brewing. I've bought Marris otter from these places before, but never got over 80% efficiency (which was still better than JW or powells).

Maybe a combination of a different crush, mineral addition and the grain? Whatever it is, I'll keep doing it. It'll be interesting to see what happens when I order some other malts from Craftbrewer.

Thanks everyone

When I used to get my grain crushed I averaged 65-70%
I got a BC and on factory setting got 75%
With a finer crush than that now and with 2 sparges I get 80-82%

BB
 
The biggest increases in efficiency I have experienced came from a change in the crush.

As in crack to powder, stir the mash like mad, recirculate about 3 litres, etc? That'll work too :)
 
Sounds more likely it's the crush then. Different suppliers will crush differently. I've never noticed any big difference in efficiency using MO. The salts might make a difference but I doubt they'd make that big a change unless you were using reverse osmosis water before.
 
As in crack to powder, stir the mash like mad, recirculate about 3 litres, etc? That'll work too :)

PM, the floating infusion mash has obviously changed you as a religious experience would. I gather that's what you're hinting at again ??

While I have no doubts there's benefits, is there any chance you could explain the benefits for the uninitiated?

More curious than anything. Maybe it'll change my life? :unsure:

Warren -
 
The biggest increases in efficiency I have experienced came from a change in the crush.
I had issues regarding efficencies and wanted to know where the the major change came from as I have been experimenting with a number of different mashing styles etc. So I did an experiment on the long weekend by doing 2 brews with different crush sizes one at a 3.5 mil crush and the other at a 2 mil crush everything else was exactly the same. I was amazed at the difference in efficency I got for the 3.5 mil crush gave an effiency of 60% and the 2 mil crush gave an effiency of 75%. might try a smaller one again next time.
 
You'll be sorry you asked, Warran, but I'll take that post as a stopper-remover.

Floating the mash has rocked my brewing world and it is making great inroads into the English style brewers in the IBUs at the moment.

Most of us AGers here in Aus learnt to brew from the US guys that started before us and they learnt from the mostly German brewers of the USA. If not German themselves, the early US commercial brewers learnt from German brew masters. Their style is to crush the grain to a powder in order to "access all the starch" during the mash, but this leads to a sticky gluggy mash with the starch at the bottom and the husks at the top. Hence the rakes in German and many US mash tuns. Keeps the enzymes moving so that they can contact as much of the starch as possible and stop the bed from setting, which makes lautering a PITA.

With a mash like that, what you end up having to do, to make the grain bed turn into a filter is recirculate the starchy, enzymy mash thru the husks until they stop the cloudiness and protein from finding its way into the kettle. Even after a recirculation, you still get some of the starch and protein into the kettle, giving hazes and whatnot.

With a floating mash, as I said in the What are you brewing II thread, you don't crush the husk, you don't break the husk-testa interface and you leave the airy protein matrix largely intact, which gives the benefit of allowing even hydration of the grain. This leaves the enzymes where they are: in contact with the starches and gets them all wet and ready for work, like they would be in a germinating seed. Conversion is awesome. As there is no powdered starch, the protein is contained in its matrix in the endosperm, runoff is immediately bright. My last batch needed less than a litre to be recirculated, more like a pint, and that was just to get a few arcospires back onto the grain bed.

Thems your benefits: clean bright runoff, bugger all recirculation and excellent conversion. Downside is that you need to fly sparge and do so slowly to leave the mash floating and to allow the sparge water to penetrate the grain to extract the sugars.

As I alluded to above, some grains are better for this than others. MO is made for the floating mash, because that's the way English brewers mash. Or maybe English brewers float their mash because that's the way their grain is malted, I don't know. I have made mixed results with Aussie malts. Some batches float well, other's not so well.

I could go on about hop additions, the German (and American) style of Bittering (full boil) + Flavour (part boil) + Aroma (short boil or flameout) vs the English whirlpool or hopback methods, but that's a whole nuther can of worms.

There is a bit of interest about this method and scarce information about it on the web, so I'll start a thread on it later on and get some input from /// who showed me the magic floaty mash.
 
Thanks for that, most interesting indeed (until I read the fly sparge part <_< ). Sort of runs counter to what we're all told will happen.

My concerns would have been less efficiency for a start but that does not seem to be the case.

My second concern would be that due to the minimised dough in on the mash you'd be risking unconverted starch (from dough balls) washing into your boiler? Just a guess but obviously doesn't happen.

Only guessing but it may or may not go some way to explain why some (home) brewers encounter haze in Maris Otter. Perhaps its just not suited to the finely crushed mashes of some home setups?

Being a died in the wool batch sparger after 8 years of fly sparging I can't see myself going over to a floating mash in any hurry OTOH I might give it a go just to see if there's any difference.

What sort of mill settings are being used for the resultant floating mash and are 2 roller mills equally as adept at the required crush as 3 roller mills?

Warren -
 
You don't get dough balls with a coarse mash. That's largely the point. The starches are still contained mostly within the husk.

There's a conveniently available chapter here on google books about the differences between German decoction mashing and English infusion mashing. 15 pages, lots of pics.
 
The kernel cracks but makes almost no flour. Not sure of the gap in mm. Don't have feeler gauges. We ought to stop discussing in this thread. I'll post a new topic in AG on the way home this arvy.
 
I'm fine with this discussion in my thread..I'm finding it interesting too. Make sure you start that thread! :icon_cheers:
 
I get the grain crushed for me when I buy it.

Now that you guys mention it, though, I did change suppliers for these 4 beers. I got these ones from Craftbrewer, and up until now I've always got them from either grain and grape or greensborough home brewing. I've bought Marris otter from these places before, but never got over 80% efficiency (which was still better than JW or powells).

Maybe a combination of a different crush, mineral addition and the grain? Whatever it is, I'll keep doing it. It'll be interesting to see what happens when I order some other malts from Craftbrewer.

Thanks everyone

Ronin,

I'd put money on it being the crush - I brew with Aussie, British & European malts with very little difference in efficiency. My average for a 5% brew is 85%.
We take a lot of care in our crushing... just running all malts on a single pass on 1 setting can give you very variable results. Grain freshness can have a bearing as well.

Cheers Ross
 
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