Imported And Bul

[zebba]

So last night went out to dinner with the wife and my old man, and as usual there was NOTHING on the list that looked appealing. Dad has kept asking about Heineken though (he hasn't tried it) and whilst it wasn't on the menu, the closest to it was Becks, so I ordered two Becks.

They come out, bottles and glasses, and we pour our own. I try mine, and the flavour fails to wash over me (refer to the recent "homebrew has ruined beer" thread someone else put up!), but it's not bad by any stretch. The old man tries his and says "meh, I'd rather a Carlton Draught". Interesting comparison I think, but think nothing of it.

As we continue to work through it, he keeps making comments about it, and how poor he thinks it is. I'm still confused, cause mine isn't anything outstanding but I wouldn't call it poor - it's just a euro lager. He then picks up his bottle. "oh", he says, "it's brewed by Lion Nathan".

Now, I'd already noticed mine, and it was not a Lion Nathan. The back label was all in French (I know, the beer is German, but trust me here, it was French), and it had an "imported by" sticker on it. His had "imported" on the foil on top, but it was definitely a BUL. So I do a side by side.

His comparison to Carlton Draught was apt. Where the import was a typical euro lager, all pilsner malt, very mild hops, clean, the BUL had that aussie lager harshness to it. It was a lot paler (pretty hard, I know, but it was!), thin. They weren't even close.

Now, I know that the BUL beers will never be the same as the real thing, but they should be at least close. These were not.

The staff were very apologetic. They claimed they only had one slab, and both beers had come from the same slab. I find it very hard to believe

 

[Adamt]

When beer travels in green bottles halfway across the world, it changes.

 

[Fourstar]

When beer travels in green bottles halfway across the world, it changes.

Sealed in whole cases with no light penetration and then inside of a shipping container? i dont think the green bottle has something todo with it Adam, more so the temperature differentials being a spot for oxidation to kick in and premature aging.

 

[roo_dr]

I think Zebba's saying that the beer that sat in a container and crossed the equator 3 times was the truer, tastier, beer...

Probably worth feeding that back to the brewery though, they have quite strict rules in place that are supposed to stop this happening. I was amazed at the amount of times BUL have to brew, taste, compare, be inspected & have tasted and compared by Masterbrewers from the home brewery, throw away, try again, repeat, repeat, repeat, until they are allowed to BUL.

Whilst it is not brewed by the original, it is still their name on the bottle, and their reputation.

 

[Adamt]

Sealed in whole cases with no light penetration and then inside of a shipping container? i dont think the green bottle has something todo with it Adam, more so the temperature differentials being a spot for oxidation to kick in and premature aging.

You're right that the green bottle doesn't have effects during shipping, perhaps I worded it clumsily. Once it's at the restaurant/bottlo, and its taken out of the carton, stored as 6-packs, that's when the damage occurs.

The lack of "poo" in the description suggests this one wasn't skunked .

 

[zebba]

I think Zebba's saying that the beer that sat in a container and crossed the equator 3 times was the truer, tastier, beer...

Indeed I am!

Probably worth feeding that back to the brewery though, they have quite strict rules in place that are supposed to stop this happening. I was amazed at the amount of times BUL have to brew, taste, compare, be inspected & have tasted and compared by Masterbrewers from the home brewery, throw away, try again, repeat, repeat, repeat, until they are allowed to BUL.

Whilst it is not brewed by the original, it is still their name on the bottle, and their reputation.

Not a bad idea that.

The lack of "poo" in the description suggests this one wasn't skunked

LOL. The import was alright. Nothing in the way of hops, but you could really taste the pilsner malt.

 

[Fourstar]

The lack of "poo" in the description suggests this one wasn't skunked .

Yeah, temperature control is a big issue when getting beer shipped and then the handing of the beer once it gets to the point of sale. I'd say majority of imports are shipped in containers with no temperature control, sit on fiery hot docks for weeks and end up with premature ageing. This is probably a reason why alot of imports have a distinct oxidised toffee note. I believe Sierra Nevada are trying to combat this with specifically designed O2 absorbing caps.

 

[Bribie G]

Imported Dutch and German beers usually have a very nice hop nose. A reasonable benchmark is to go to Liquorland and get a six pack of Bavaria which despite its name is an old Dutch brewery at Lieshout, and a six pack of Konig Pils from Germany. The Saaz, Hersbrucker or whatever really hits you as you open the bottle - waay different to Australian domestic beers that usually only have a bittering hop addition or a squirt of extract on the way to the bottling line.

 

[zebba]

Just thought I'd clarify - I have no issue with BUL beer. But in this case, they weren't even remotely similar.

@ BribieG - I remember when the euro lagers that were my drink of choice (i.e. before homebrew) that yes, the hop nose was lovely. The first Stella I had around '97 was an epiphany for me, a country boy who thought that VB was the height of the brewing art. I can't remember the last time I actually experienced that though from any of the big names (Stella, Becks, Heineken, etc), and that experience is consistent with the BUL and the genuine imports. Indeed, a recent attempt to get a quaffing euro style lager along the lines of a Grolsch that I did had no hop additions after 20 minutes. And it came out pretty darn close...

 

[Supra-Jim]

Yeah, temperature control is a big issue when getting beer shipped and then the handing of the beer once it gets to the point of sale. I'd say majority of imports are shipped in containers with no temperature control, sit on fiery hot docks for weeks and end up with premature ageing. This is probably a reason why alot of imports have a distinct oxidised toffee note.

If i recall correctly, Ross commented recently (W.R.T importing some of the popular american micros), that Stone Brewing would not gaurantee the qaulity of their product unless it was shipped in a refridgerated container ($$$$$).

I believe Sierra Nevada are trying to combat this with specifically designed O2 absorbing caps.

If their beers are bottled in a commerical bottler (Co2 flush etc), what would be the benefit of this?? where would the O2 come from? Just curious???
(assuming SN is large enough to have a full commerical bottling line)

Cheers SJ

 

[beersom]

If their beers are bottled in a commerical bottler (Co2 flush etc), what would be the benefit of this?? where would the O2 come from? Just curious???
Cheers SJ

Even with a counter pressure machine that has a double pre-evacuation and pulses the beer so that you can cap on foam you still get a small amount of O2 in the bottle. Oxygen absorbing caps help that little bit extra to combat this. Am currently looking into getting them... Burleigh brewing uses them already

 

[Fourstar]

If their beers are bottled in a commerical bottler (Co2 flush etc), what would be the benefit of this?? where would the O2 come from? Just curious???
(assuming SN is large enough to have a full commerical bottling line)
Cheers SJ

Even with a counter pressure machine that has a double pre-evacuation and pulses the beer so that you can cap on foam you still get a small amount of O2 in the bottle. Oxygen absorbing caps help that little bit extra to combat this. Am currently looking into getting them... Burleigh brewing uses them already

It may also help combat the issue of O2 being drawn under the cap when the beer is stored in fluctuating temperatures which causes a vacuum.

 

[alowen474]

It may also help combat the issue of O2 being drawn under the cap when the beer is stored in fluctuating temperatures which causes a vacuum.

Couldn't be many bubbles in it then?

 

[Supra-Jim]

Couldn't be many bubbles in it then?

Seals can be directional (i.e. seals in one direction better than the other). However in this case I think with the temp fluctuations, fourstar is referring to the change in pressure in the head space. As temp rises, CO2 will leave solution and head space pressure increases, and as the beer is chilled, the Co2 is re-absorped, dropping the headspace pressure.

Don't know that the change in pressure would be enough to cause a vacuum.

Cheers SJ

 

[Fourstar]

Don't know that the change in pressure would be enough to cause a vacuum.
Cheers SJ

I believe i heard Charlie Bamforth say it is possible for O2 to vacuum back into a sealed bottle.

 

[alowen474]

I believe i heard Charlie Bamforth say it is possible for O2 to vacuum back into a sealed bottle.

Would be an intersting read. From my own experience I have opened very cold beer and I still get that beer opening sound.
No arguement the pressure would be reduced with temp and co2 absorption, but I doubt it would ever be a vacuum or else the beer would be flat.
Maybe in the very early stage of bottle conditioning?
Would be an interesting read though.

 

[Supra-Jim]

Fair enough, i can see how it might happen, just don't think it is very likely, plus i don't have a name to drop to support my arguement

Cheers SJ

 

[Fourstar]

Would be an intersting read. From my own experience I have opened very cold beer and I still get that beer opening sound.
No arguement the pressure would be reduced with temp and co2 absorption, but I doubt it would ever be a vacuum or else the beer would be flat.
Maybe in the very early stage of bottle conditioning?
Would be an interesting read though.

its got nothign todo with losing the 'pop' (AFAIK) as you are drawing more gas inside the bottle, not allowing gas to escape. As Supra noted earlier, its almost like the cap is functioning like a one way valve.

It's easier to get gas in than let gas out. Kinda like our 'one way valves' :lol: Atleast the ones who dont venture down Kigs Cross too often. h34r:

 

[alowen474]

Not trying to start an arguement, but isn't physics working against this happenning?
If there is always positive pressure inside the bottle,how does the gas get in? I doubt very much it would drop below atmospheric air pressure regardless of temperature, maybe its some sort of osmotic force?

If I have my air compressor to 100 PSI, then pull the relief valve and drop it to 10PSI ,is trying to draw air in somewhere? I wouldn't believe so but would be very interested to hear if that was the case.
Anyway, keen to know!!
Cheers

I don't think there are too many "one way" valve at the cross!!

 

[Fourstar]

no idea behind the physics beerforal but Charlie has been involved in alot of research so there has to be some papers about it floating around somewhere.