Immersion Chiller

[berto]

I all,
Im looking at making an immersion chiller which stays in my brew and is used as the cooling rather than a fermentation fridge. Just a little experiment i'm trying at the moment.

The question i ask is, Can you leave a copper immersion chiller in your brew throughout primary and secondary ferment? Palmer mentions something about high levels of copper being bad for the yeast. Or do i need a stainless coil to do this.

If i have to go stainless, would somebody know whether:
1) i can get annealed (sp?) stainless to make it easier to coil.
and 2) an approximate cost for either 3/8 or 1/2 in stainless pipe.

Hope somebody out there has some info,

cheers, Rob

 

[Gough]

G'day Berto,

I'm completely the wrong bloke to be trying to answer this question for you -I'm a 'tool-challenged' brewer and as such I'm not right up on the raw materials either...

That said my local HBS guy Mark got a roll of Stainless tubing in, approx 10mm at a guess and it looked just like my roll of annealed copper I made my immersion chiller out of. That doesn't mean it qualifies as 'annealed' I guess - I'm not up on the technicalities, but it looked just like a roll of annealed copper so maybe it was the stainless equivalent - hell if I've seen it it must exist :lol: :lol:

Good luck with it,

Shawn.

 

[chillamacgilla73]

Berto,

We get 1/4" Stainless Seamless G316 Tube that is annealed(Pickled or bright finish)at work through a local supplier. A shoofty through the Yellow Pages/Google will find loads of suppliers and like most companies they champ at the bit to help out home brewers(Makes a break from everyday straight orders).Be very aware of stainless' ability to work harden(eg: You want to get your coil right the first go).

Table taken from Stirling Stainless Steel Website (http://www.stirlingss.com.au/handbook/s-tube.html). No commercial interest etc.

Cheers
Chilla

 

[warrenlw63]

Berto.

A lot of English breweries do/did the very same. I'm pretty certain a copper coil in your fermenter wouldn't harm the beer at all.

Stainless is a probably a better option but I think you'll find it won't conduct the temperatures as efficiently as copper will.

Just a hunch. Good luck with the project though. What will you be pumping through the coil brine or glycol?

Warren -

 

[Simon W]

Your right, Stainless is a shocker for themal conductivity.
Copper is the second best metal, after Silver, but I'm guessing there won't be too many people making silver chillers!

Click here for a table. Stainless isn't listed, but methinks it wouldn't be much different to steel.

Actually, I just found this link that lists stainless, it IS much worse than steel!
Different units are used so the numbers are different to the first link.

EDIT: added links

 

[recharge]

Although stainless is a lot less conductive than copper if you are just using to maintain brewing temp you shouldnt have any probs. If its for cooling your wort probably look at making a copper one too.

 

[Crazy]

I would have thought that if copper was detramental to yeast the the damage would be done while boiling in the big copper kettles that you still see in some of the smaller brewerys.

I was actualy reading someware that when they started using stainless kettles the had to add extra's like zink that used to leach in small amounts out of the copper.

Besides even annealed stainless is hard to bend compared to copper.

 

[Batz]

Besides even annealed stainless is hard to bend compared to copper.

[post="103417"][/post]​

And you can't anneal stainless anyway

Batz

 

[berto]

Rang up and got some quotes on this today, and seems as though stainless is pretty expensive. I was thinking that already. To get stuff which is easy to coil, and work hardens was $10/m. I think somebody mentioned in the thread earlier that copper tube was on sale at bunnings. I may have to go and have a look.

I will be pumping glycol through it on a controller, (see my question about multiple input controllers) This will give me perfect setting on all fermenters, and allow it to be done on a table or somewhere quite easy to access without the need for fridges and all those kinds of things.

Just found this too Saying copper is not harmful in your beer. SO i think i might get enough copper for one coil, and leave it in the fermenter for my next brew, and see what comes of it. Thanks for all the help guys, and if someone knows where i can score an old window aircon which still runs would be fantastic.

 

[Darren]

Just found this too Saying copper is not harmful in your beer. SO i think i might get enough copper for one coil, and leave it in the fermenter for my next brew, and see what comes of it. Thanks for all the help guys, and if someone knows where i can score an old window aircon which still runs would be fantastic.

[post="103592"][/post]​

Berto, that link says that copper is toxic to lower organisms such as yeast. Probably not a good idea in your fermenters!

There is no mention of using copper in any brewery fermenters either. I suspect you will get considerable oxidation of the copper at the beer/air interface too.

If it were me I wouldn't do it. But its your beer I guess.
cheers
Darren

 

[devo]

Personally if I was going to use your suggested method of keeping your wort cool in a fermentation sense then I wouldn't be using cooper. Just for toxicity sakes I'd go for the stainless steel and/or use a fridge or freezer instead.

 

[berto]

A: I don't think I ever said "unequivocally" that copper is not toxic. What I did say is that using copper brewing equipment does not pose a health hazard. I will add here that copper in very high concentrations is toxic, especially to lower organisms such as fungi (including yeast) and algae. Certain copper compounds have found wide use as fungicides. On the other hand, human beings require about 2 mg of copper per day for good health. Copper forms a part of some enzymes that are essential to normal cellular function. Yeast also requires trace amounts of copper for its metabolism, and some modern all-stainless steel breweries have had to add copper to prevent hung fermentations. In this respect, copper is no different from many other substances, where a high concentration is toxic but the correct amount is essential.

Copper is considerably more resistant to attack by acids than the writer believes. Diluted nonoxidizing acids, including hydrochloric and sulfuric acid, have no effect on it in the absence of an oxidizing agent. It is only oxidizing acids (for example, nitric) that are capable of attacking it in dilute concentrations. In practical brewing situations, the use of copper equipment will increase the copper content of the wort slightly, but not to the point where it would damage the health of the yeast or the human consumer.

Darren, you have to read past the first paragraph. Mention here about some brewerys having to add it to the ferment.

 

[Simon W]

Are you using glycol to reduce electrolysis/corrosion?
Glycol actually has a lower thermal conductivity than plain water!

 

[Darren]

A: I don't think I ever said "unequivocally" that copper is not toxic. What I did say is that using copper brewing equipment does not pose a health hazard. I will add here that copper in very high concentrations is toxic, especially to lower organisms such as fungi (including yeast) and algae. Certain copper compounds have found wide use as fungicides. On the other hand, human beings require about 2 mg of copper per day for good health. Copper forms a part of some enzymes that are essential to normal cellular function. Yeast also requires trace amounts of copper for its metabolism, and some modern all-stainless steel breweries have had to add copper to prevent hung fermentations. In this respect, copper is no different from many other substances, where a high concentration is toxic but the correct amount is essential.

Copper is considerably more resistant to attack by acids than the writer believes. Diluted nonoxidizing acids, including hydrochloric and sulfuric acid, have no effect on it in the absence of an oxidizing agent. It is only oxidizing acids (for example, nitric) that are capable of attacking it in dilute concentrations. In practical brewing situations, the use of copper equipment will increase the copper content of the wort slightly, but not to the point where it would damage the health of the yeast or the human consumer.

Darren, you have to read past the first paragraph. Mention here about some brewerys having to add it to the ferment.

[post="103607"][/post]​

yep read the lot berto. No where does it mention all copper breweries with copper fermenters! Must be a reason for it and it also says they add TRACE amounts of copper (some breweries do) Places high in the mountains where there is NO copper or other trace elements in the water only I bet. You will be adding more thn trace amounts by leaving a coil (which would have a greater surface are than a copper fermenter). I guess if you do it and it causes some problem to you or your friends you can always sue Dave Miller :huh:
cheers
Darren

 

[berto]

Simon, not using the glycol for that purpose. Only using a small amount so i will mostly retain the properties of teh water, but i find that generally having water with glycol in it prevents it from spoiling as easily.

 

[Darren]

Glycol is very toxic berto. If your copper does corrode and leak into your beer then you will be in trouble.

cheers
Darren

 

[berto]

http://www.answers.com/topic/propylene-glycol

Read the bottom bit. Small amounts wont do anything too serious to you, and if youve ever had the slightest sip of beer with glycol in it. You will know its there, believe me. Can be a common occurence in some pubs.

 

[Zyy]

Go here to find out more about stainless, its properties, applications, and suppliers.

http://www.assda.asn.au/asp/index.asp?pgid=17956

And by the way stainless can be annealed - but it will always be harder to bend than copper. And it doesn't conduct heat as well as copper.

 

[Sean]

There is no mention of using copper in any brewery fermenters either.

The fermenters at the (sadly now closed) Eldridge Pope brewery in Dorcester were the most beautiful things; rectangular fermenters constructed of wood (maple IIRC) and lined with copper. I can't recall any others, but I doubt they were unique. Certainly some very fine beer came out of the ones in Dorcester.

 

[Hutch]

Speaking of copper in brewing, I paid homage to the Pilsner Urquell brewery in Czech Rep a few years ago. Several massive copper boilers - still in use. Not too sure whether they use copper in their fermentation vessels though?.....