Howdy

[Klakklo]

Hi Folks,

Just joined the forum from Perth: I am semi new to homebrewing having done my kit and kilo stints as a student with some explosive result. Now after some 15 years of "sampling" brews from around the world I am re-starting by using extract and grains. Love it and love the results so far, there so much variery of ingridients availabe!
I thought I'd shot a question to the experts out there: I have a pilsner in secondary, lagering at 4o C, in two weeks or so it will be ready to bottle and I am wondering how much dextrose to use for priming. I found a very usefull online calculator (brewersfriend) but I am not sure what temperature I should consdider for the calculation considering that primary fermentation took place at 11o C.

I'd appreciate your feedback on this and looking forward to learn from you guys.

Cheers,

Klakklo

 

[Blind Dog]

IMO, none. Use light Dried Malt Extract. I find dextrose or other simple sugars add a cidery, vinegary note to the bolted beer that's unpleasant in a light beer. Might be a personal thing though

As to temp, its the temp of the beer at the point you carbonate it that's important, particularly if it been rested at that temp for a while. The lower the temp, generally the more more co2 in the beer so the less you need to add. Play with the brewers friend calculator just adjusting the temp to see the effect

 

[verysupple]

I have to disagree with Blind Dog on the temp question. The temperature that's relevant is the maximum temperature the beer was kept at for any significant period of time (i.e. an hour or so). The reason is that as the beer warms up it's ability to hold CO2 is diminished. However it will not take CO2 back into solution as it cools. This is because of the ratios of the amount of CO2 in the beer and in the atmosphere.

As the beer warms up the CO2 escapes. But as the beer cools it doesn't gain CO2 because the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere is lower than in the beer. Remember that everything wants to be in equilibrium - i.e. equal concentrations of CO2 in the beer and the surroundings. So CO2 won't go from the atmosphere into the beer under any circumstances (CO2 is ~0.04 % of the atmosphere - less than sweet FA). You can force CO2 into beer by other means, e.g. force carbonation or fermentation in a sealed bottle.

 

[AHB_Admin]

Howdy right back atcha. Glad to see Aussies using the expression too. Thought it was limited to Texans and those making fun of us.

 

[Blind Dog]

I have to disagree with Blind Dog on the temp question. The temperature that's relevant is the maximum temperature the beer was kept at for any significant period of time (i.e. an hour or so). The reason is that as the beer warms up it's ability to hold CO2 is diminished. However it will not take CO2 back into solution as it cools. This is because of the ratios of the amount of CO2 in the beer and in the atmosphere.

As the beer warms up the CO2 escapes. But as the beer cools it doesn't gain CO2 because the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere is lower than in the beer. Remember that everything wants to be in equilibrium - i.e. equal concentrations of CO2 in the beer and the surroundings. So CO2 won't go from the atmosphere into the beer under any circumstances (CO2 is ~0.04 % of the atmosphere - less than sweet FA). You can force CO2 into beer by other means, e.g. force carbonation or fermentation in a sealed bottle.

You're not disagreeing, it's just my post that's imprecise. It's the temperature the beer was at during fermentation or, if higher, the highest temperature it was rested at post active fermentation that's important. Wouldn't have been that hard for me to type that originally.

As every kid who's opened a half empty bottle of soda knows, CO2 does not magically redissolve into liquid (although apparently it does, but it's slow and negligible for our purposes)

 

[Klakklo]

IMO, none. Use light Dried Malt Extract. I find dextrose or other simple sugars add a cidery, vinegary note to the bolted beer that's unpleasant in a light beer. Might be a personal thing though

As to temp, its the temp of the beer at the point you carbonate it that's important, particularly if it been rested at that temp for a while. The lower the temp, generally the more more co2 in the beer so the less you need to add. Play with the brewers friend calculator just adjusting the temp to see the effect

Hi Blind Dog, thanks for your reply and for pointing to DME, will keep it in mind for next batch.

 

[Klakklo]

I have to disagree with Blind Dog on the temp question. The temperature that's relevant is the maximum temperature the beer was kept at for any significant period of time (i.e. an hour or so). The reason is that as the beer warms up it's ability to hold CO2 is diminished. However it will not take CO2 back into solution as it cools. This is because of the ratios of the amount of CO2 in the beer and in the atmosphere.

As the beer warms up the CO2 escapes. But as the beer cools it doesn't gain CO2 because the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere is lower than in the beer. Remember that everything wants to be in equilibrium - i.e. equal concentrations of CO2 in the beer and the surroundings. So CO2 won't go from the atmosphere into the beer under any circumstances (CO2 is ~0.04 % of the atmosphere - less than sweet FA). You can force CO2 into beer by other means, e.g. force carbonation or fermentation in a sealed bottle.

Hi verysupple, thanks for the clarification. Just wondering now: what's a sweet FA???

 

[peas_and_corn]

That's a French Alt that's very under attenuated. They don't have huge attenuation usually, so if you undershoot more it makes the French Alt quite sweet, hence a Sweet FA

 

[stakka82]

I have to disagree on the use of dextrose or table sugar to prime, if your other brewing practices are sound priming with sugar won't have a negative impact.

 

[TheWiggman]

Welcome Klakko. You're now privy to the range of advice and opinions you'll get on this forum. If nothing else, take the advice as a starting point then do your own research or experiment.
Sweet FA = sweet f&@k all
For reference, I prime with dextrose. I found table sugar to give a toffee flavour. DME is ideal I've heard, but you use less of it for the same level of carbonation so be careful.
I also don't recommend using a secondary. Used to, don't any more. I leave my lagers on the yeast for up to 6 weeks with no detrimental effects.

 

[Mardoo]

Next thing p&c you'll be sending him out for striped paint.

Welcome to the forum mate. Here there be jokers, and a lot of good advice too.

 

[Blind Dog]

I have to disagree on the use of dextrose or table sugar to prime, if your other brewing practices are sound priming with sugar won't have a negative impact.

Just depends if you can taste it or not. I could if I used simple table sugar or dex, but not if I used an unrefined sugar or LDME. May have been my imagination.

 

[Blind Dog]

?..and a lot of good advice too.

Although I'd suggest ignoring everything I say. SWMBO does. Makes for a happy marriage

 

[Klakklo]

Welcome Klakko. You're now privy to the range of advice and opinions you'll get on this forum. If nothing else, take the advice as a starting point then do your own research or experiment.
Sweet FA = sweet f&@k all
For reference, I prime with dextrose. I found table sugar to give a toffee flavour. DME is ideal I've heard, but you use less of it for the same level of carbonation so be careful.
I also don't recommend using a secondary. Used to, don't any more. I leave my lagers on the yeast for up to 6 weeks with no detrimental effects.

Cheers Wiggman,

With Belgian IPA, German IPA, America Pilsner already available a French Alt wouldn't sound too exotic after all

How is lager clarification going without racking to a secondary fermentor?

 

[Klakklo]

Next thing p&c you'll be sending him out for striped paint.

Welcome to the forum mate. Here there be jokers, and a lot of good advice too.

And that;s exctly what I would expect from a home brewing forum.

Cheers

 

[wally]

For reference, I prime with dextrose. I found table sugar to give a toffee flavour. DME is ideal I've heard, but you use less of it for the same level of carbonation so be careful.

Are you sure about this?

DME is only approximately 70% fermentable. Therefore you need more of it compared to sucrose or dextrose.

 

[manticle]

More dme not less.

 

[pk.sax]

Howdy right back atcha. Glad to see Aussies using the expression too. Thought it was limited to Texans and those making fun of us.

You'd never be able to tell and we won't let it on.

@OP, easy way to fix that temperature is to give your beer a diacetyl rest.
This is a temperature higher than your fermenting temp (~20C) just before all fermentation is finished - about 2-3 gravity points remaining. It cleans up residual undesirable flavours and also gives you a highest reference temperature for priming.

Even if you missed the boat and brew has finished, raise temperature to some value above where it has been through any stage of ferment and you will end up with a known amount of dissolved CO2. Then use that as bottling temp even if you've chilled it down since.
Hope that makes sense.

 

[TheWiggman]

Cheers Wiggman,

With Belgian IPA, German IPA, America Pilsner already available a French Alt wouldn't sound too exotic after all

How is lager clarification going without racking to a secondary fermentor?

Sorry, more DME for bottling. The online calculators will sort you out.
For my lagers I drop the temp in stages to 4°C for 10 days to complete the last few points, then cold crash to -1°C for 3 days before kegging/bottling. The latter step goes a long way to making clear beer. For true clarity though you still need to polyclar/gelatine or filter.