how long to get banana from 3068?

[Moad]

I had to pitch at 24 degrees thanks to being rushed on a weeknight, dropped to 17 overnight. 6 litre starter into 60 litres. I oxygenated due to relatively small starter, 2 days later its half way through ferment with no banana at all.

At what point do the banana smells come through? The last hefe I did was great but I didn't record anything back then.

 

[poggor]

I have done two hefes with 3068 in the last few months. Both started around 22 and dropped to 17-19. I must say that spice very much dominates ester... definitely not big banana flavours. I'd be interested to hear peoples thoughts too.


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[MastersBrewery]

I've now done 2 batches with this. The first huge banana esters OG 1046, under pitched, 26c fermented @22c. the second had a massive overshoot in efficiency of 15% did a 1L starter to get things going, pitched at 22c and fermented the same, only a trace of banana, but still a nice brew although high ABV

MB

 

[shmang]

To get the Banana to come out you need to stress the yeast, under pitch or ferment warm (22°C approx).
Since your 48 hours in you probably won't get many more esters but try dialling the temp up a bit and see what happens.
From memory the ester's happen in the first 36ish hours of fermentation

Edit: My awesome spelling

 

[hoppy2B]

17 degrees is too low for banana.

I have a beautiful wheat beer in bottles at the moment that I fermented with yeast recultured from a Weihenstephaner hefe bottle. First 24 hours of ferment was at 24C and then dropped to 22C and then further to 20C after a day or two.

It has lots of banana to it but the clove is limited due to the yeast setting like rubber on the bottom of the bottle. I find suspended yeast contributes to clove flavour. The starter had plenty of clove in the nose when I swirled to pitch, but it was also fermented cooler.

Interested to know what people are using to prime bottled hefe. I think my yeasts are dropping out due to using white sugar for priming. Its something I noticed when I switched from brown to white sugar for priming bottled beer. Happens with all my different yeasts, not just the hefe.

 

[Flash_DG]

With all the hefes and dunkel hefes ive ever made, never have I made a starter with 3068. I just pitch straight from the smack. Always get banana, some more then others but it's always there.

 

[TheWiggman]

Agree with the above. I read up on it a bit and pitching rate and temps have a big influence on the balance of clove and banana. I've done two brew using 3068 and fermented both around 22°C with a 1l starter. Banana was present, but not overwhelming. In future (which is this week actually) I'd pitch the fresh smack pack straight in and keep it around 22°C. But that's because I like bananas.
And I will be setting up a blow off tube because holy crap, does this yeast go bananas.

 

[Flash_DG]

And I will be setting up a blow off tube because holy crap, does this yeast go bananas.

I just had a look too see how many beers I've made with 3068, up till now it's 8 beers over the last 5 years.
Only one of those (Number 6) had a monster krausen.
It was strange that I read about all these other brewers having this happen but not me, I guess it was the underpitching that kept it low for me.

 

[Moad]

Yeah last time no starter and it was a banana bomb. Hopefully this still tastes good with little esters.

Next time 2-3L starter into 60 not 6. Starter smelt incredible too

 

[verysupple]

At what point do the banana smells come through?

Nobody has addressed this yet. So for completeness...

The banana character comes from an ester called isoamyl acetate. Esters are formed when organic acids (most abundant in beer is acetyl-CoA) combine with alcohols (typically fusel alcohols, which is why higher ferment temps often give more esters - because there are more fusel alcohols). Although the conditions needed for ester production are determined early on in the ferment (lag phase), the esters won't actually be formed until later on when there is appreciable alcohol present.

The OP was about two days into fermentation and about 50 % complete. I'd think that there'd be plenty of alcohol at that stage so if it's not estery now, it probably won't ever be.

 

[Markbeer]

When you rebrew this I would split the ferment and ferment one at 24 degrees and see what happens.

oxygenation should be avoided to get additional banana.

 

[MartinOC]

Gents, thanks for your input to my quandary: How to avoid banana's in my wheat beers using 3068.

I prefer cloves in my weizens, so you've confirmed for me that massive pitching rates, lots of oxygenation & low initial fermentation temperatures will achieve my goal.

It's not a right/wrong thing, just a personal preference.

Prost!!

PS. If anyone knows of a low isoamyl-acetate-producing weizen strain, I'm keen to hear anecdotals....

 

[rude]

I did 2 hefes 25 L each one was a dunkel 1.5 L starter for each using 3068 fermented @ 20c
After bottling & 2 weeks in quite tart but had a trace of banana but 1 week later banana all gone.
Tried drinking with yeast swirled & without prefered without but very tart I want more bannana
Next time 1 Litre starter ferment @ 22c 50 50 pils wheat plus malenoidin cause it was lacking that malt flavour

 

[manticle]

Martin - ferulic acid rest to push the precursor for clove (4-vinyl guaicol). You may already know.

 

[TheWiggman]

Here's some ramblings from an developing brewer...
I've always described wheat beers as 'plasticky', and have never been a fan. Whenever I've tried some crafty beers in the past and there is a familiar 'something' about it I don't like, often it's the presence of wheat.

I know what bananas and bubblegum taste like. I like both as long as the bananas are ripe.

This clove reference all the wheat boys talk about... what the hell is it? I have no idea what cloves taste like. Banana one way, clove the other? I cracked it. I just went to the kitchen and demanded cloves. There were some ground cloves in the cupboard so in my mouth it went.
REVELATION.
Cloves are the taste that I predominantly don't like about wheat beers but the purists seem to steer towards it. I describe it as plastic to my tastes, but I may have been tainted by a system flaw back in my early days. I just pitched some recultured slurry yeast from that very brew from February and it's already showing action 5h after pitching. Hardy, hardy yeast.

So anyway to me the yeast seems to produce that bubblegum and banana character, and the wheat itself seem to produce the clove.
I can taste when there is a reasonable proportion of wheat in 'non-wheat' beers, but I can't say I've noticed a bubblegum or banana character in any other beers.

I've just pitched at 24°C and it'll cool overnight but will likely hang around 22°C. Let's see how this plays out. If it's rubbish I'm not doing a wheat beer again until I stop believing it tastes like plastic. This still leaves about shitloads of other beers styles to explore before I try to convince myself I might turn around to wheats again.
I did a ferulic acid rest for this brew too, maintaining highish pH to suit.

 

[manticle]

It is a phenolic rather than an ester. Phenolic flavours can range from plastic to pepper/spice to clove to smoke and more.

You ferulic will push more clove.

 

[Dunkelbrau]

Open ferments increase ester production as well.

 

[pist]

Like wiggman i dont like wheat beers which swing to the clove side taste wise. Banana is what i chase when doing a hefe. Im not particularly keen on weihenstaphen and i wasnt particularly keen on the flavour profile of 3068. To me it seems to throw alot of clove even when fermented warm. First hefe i did i used 3056 and fermented warm (22-24) and it hit the sweet spot with me. All banana and hardly any clove was a very nice beer