How clean is a fermenter

[stux]

Petrol won't instantly burn your eyes out and put holes in your skin.

I know professional brewers who are afraid of caustic... and that's probably a good thing

 

[S.E]

Petrol won't instantly burn your eyes out and put holes in your skin.

I know professional brewers who are afraid of caustic... and that's probably a good thing

Caustic won’t instantly burn your eyes out or put holes in your skin either. I regularly manage to splash caustic on my hands and arms as I’m too lazy to put on a rubber glove half the time, I just wash it off under the tap. I know one home brewer that splashed caustic in his eye with no harm, he does wear goggles when using it these days though.

Perhaps you are confusing caustic with napalm? Caustic is just a common heavy duty household cleaner, most oven cleaners contain caustic in fact. What do you use to clean your oven? You may well have been using caustic without realising it.

I’d be surprised if the pro brewers you know are actually afraid of caustic perhaps they should consider a career change if so. That’s like a carpenter being afraid of using a circular saw or an electrician that’s terrified of electricity.

Cheers

 

[Mr. No-Tip]

Google image search "caustic soda injury". Why take the risk?

This discussion reminds me about John Blichmann's brewery tips talk at ANHC - slides and audio here: http://anhc.com.au/index.php/program/program-archive

I think his mantra was "no shirt. No shoes. No brains", but how about "No Gloves. No Goggles. No brain."

 

[S.E]

Google image search "caustic soda injury". Why take the risk?

This discussion reminds me about John Blichmann's brewery tips talk at ANHC - slides and audio here: http://anhc.com.au/index.php/program/program-archive

I think his mantra was "no shirt. No shoes. No brains", but how about "No Gloves. No Goggles. No brain."

If you Google car crash you’ll find people are killed and maimed in car accidents every day so why did they take the risk driving?

Why do people risk cleaning their ovens and BBQs with caustic. Ill aask you the same question I asked in the post above. What do you use to clean your oven or BBQ, do you use a caustic spray like Easy Off Oven or Mr Muscle?

Why take the risk using Caustic you ask. Well if you read my previous post you’ll see that I find it is very fast and efficient. Saves me a lot of time and I don’t need to use excessive amounts of water soaking fermenters and cubes.

Some brewers are happy soaking fementers overnight in nappy san and that’s fine. Others may be interested in hearing pro brewers don’t do that and often use caustic.

Caustic is not as dangerous as you are making out. Do you really think it would be readily available and sold in supermarkets if it was? Yes it can be hazardous if not handled cautiously no one is denying that.

 

[panzerd18]

The stuff in the supermarket is normally only 33% pure. The drain cleaner in the tradesman's section in bunnings is 99% pure.

Sodium hydroxide aka caustic soda is nasty ****. Please people be carful using it. It's good at cleaning because it's extremely powerful.

You wouldn't pour acid on your skin, do don't take the chance with its alkaline cousin sodium hydroxide.


"Tissue digestion
In a similar fashion, sodium hydroxide is used to digest tissues, such as in a process that was used with farm animals at one time. This process involved placing a carcass into a sealed chamber, then adding a mixture of sodium hydroxide and water (which breaks the chemical bonds that keep the flesh intact). This eventually turns the body into a liquid with coffee-like appearance,[17][18] and the only solid that remains are bone hulls, which could be crushed between one's fingertips.[19] Sodium hydroxide is frequently used in the process of decomposing roadkill dumped in landfills by animal disposal contractors.[18] Due to its low cost and availability, it has been used to dispose of corpses by criminals. Italian serial killer Leonarda Cianciulli used this chemical to turn dead bodies into soap.[20] In Mexico, a man who worked for drug cartels admitted disposing over 300 bodies with it.[21]"

 

[S.E]

The stuff in the supermarket is normally only 33% pure. The drain cleaner in the tradesman's section in bunnings is 99% pure.

Sodium hydroxide aka caustic soda is nasty ****. Please people be carful using it. It's good at cleaning because it's extremely powerful.

You wouldn't pour acid on your skin, do don't take the chance with its alkaline cousin sodium hydroxide.


"Tissue digestion
In a similar fashion, sodium hydroxide is used to digest tissues, such as in a process that was used with farm animals at one time. This process involved placing a carcass into a sealed chamber, then adding a mixture of sodium hydroxide and water (which breaks the chemical bonds that keep the flesh intact). This eventually turns the body into a liquid with coffee-like appearance,[17][18] and the only solid that remains are bone hulls, which could be crushed between one's fingertips.[19] Sodium hydroxide is frequently used in the process of decomposing roadkill dumped in landfills by animal disposal contractors.[18] Due to its low cost and availability, it has been used to dispose of corpses by criminals. Italian serial killer Leonarda Cianciulli used this chemical to turn dead bodies into soap.[20] In Mexico, a man who worked for drug cartels admitted disposing over 300 bodies with it.[21]"

The Diggers and Mechanix caustic I referred to earlier (post 40) in the thread is 99% pure and available on the supermarket shelf in IGA and Coles. Agree with the rest of your post though.

 

[S.E]

It also used for curing olives interestingly.

 

[michaeld16]

I’d be surprised if the pro brewers you know are actually afraid of caustic perhaps they should consider a career change if so. That’s like a carpenter being afraid of using a circular saw or an electrician that’s terrified of electricity.

Cheers

Im a sparky and terrified of electricity, paying it the upmost respect helps keep me alive everyday.

 

[Mr. No-Tip]

Why take the risk using Caustic you ask. Well if you read my previous post you’ll see that I find it is very fast and efficient. Saves me a lot of time and I don’t need to use excessive amounts of water soaking fermenters and cubes.

No, I asked why you'd use it without gloves or goggles. I use it, with both. You're a walking Darwin Award if you don't. Kinda like driving without a seat belt. Those car crash images are even worse...

 

[Judanero]

Has anyone used steam with one of those clean in place spray balls? While looking at ways to improve (make easier) my fermentor cleaning routine I thought this might work?

I use converted stainless 30L kegs to ferment in, usually a spray with the hose and wiping with a scourer cleans anything off and I still do a sodium perc soak followed by another pressure wash, but it's not the biggest opening to try and manoeuvre my hand and scourer into.

 

[stux]

Was going to say, I knew a carpenter, was missing a finger, had a healthy respect for the table saw for some reason. My electrician is the same, I saw him go white as a ghost once when he found the earth wire in the roof was connected to nothing, it just pulled free.

I pay a cleaner to clean the oven with caustic.

 

[Eagleburger]

Also regarding sodium hydroxide, the stuff is very sticky when it comes to skin and eyeballs. If you get it in your eyes, keep rinsing for 20 minutes.

 

[S.E]

Im a sparky and terrified of electricity, paying it the upmost respect helps keep me alive everyday.

I always have the utmost respect for electricity. I wasn’t suggesting electricians or any one should be complacent around electricity. I do find it a bit odd that a sparky would be terrified of electricity though. It must be very difficult for you if you’re actually terrified of it, why did you choose a career that would put you in fear of your life every working day?

 

[S.E]

Was going to say, I knew a carpenter, was missing a finger, had a healthy respect for the table saw for some reason. My electrician is the same, I saw him go white as a ghost once when he found the earth wire in the roof was connected to nothing, it just pulled free.

I pay a cleaner to clean the oven with caustic.

My high school wood work teacher always had a health respect for the bench saw. Every single time he needed to use it (we weren’t allowed to use it) he would gather the whole class around and demonstrate how to safely operate it. He would push a plank of wood through it but had a batten about 18” long (this was pre metric) that he used to push the end of the plank through with so his hands didn’t need to go near the blade. After he retired he would occasionally help out at his sons furniture factory and was over 80 when he lost fingers on a bench saw.

Just curious what was the earth wire in the roof supposed to be connected to? Was it a metal roof? The question of earthing NSW came up in another thread and it turned out that houses here aren’t earthed that extensively so just wondering why there would be an earth cable in the roof? Looking around this house I can only find the water main earthed where it enters the house.

I’m not a sparky but I’ve wired countless houses in the UK, the first thing the electricity board would check before connecting us up was the earth bonding. The water main and gas pipe must be earthed but also hot and cold pipes are cross bonded under baths, basins and kitchen sinks. If they are steel the kitchen sink is also earth bonded back to the pipes in case it has been isolated from them with a fibre washer and PTFE tape. In the bathroom any metal fixtures like heating radiators are earthed.

Reading back through my posts I can’t see what I said that would give the impression that I was advising anyone to be anything but carful when using caustic.
The point I was making was it is a very effective cleaner. It is my preferred cleaner and I have not noticed any smell carrying over from previous brews.

 

[michaeld16]

I always have the utmost respect for electricity. I wasn’t suggesting electricians or any one should be complacent around electricity. I do find it a bit odd that a sparky would be terrified of electricity though. It must be very difficult for you if you’re actually terrified of it, why did you choose a career that would put you in fear of your life every working day?

I manage just fine thanks and my cautios aproach to it ensures me or my customers dont end up dead

 

[stux]

The earth wire was supposed to be connected. It was just thrown into the roof cavity.

 

[S.E]

The earth wire was supposed to be connected. It was just thrown into the roof cavity.

But what was it supposed to be connected to, what had it pulled free from? Was it supposed to be earthing a metal roof, water tank or something?

 

[TheWiggman]

Sorry to keep this OT but in the safety industry - believe it or not there is one - the biggest concept that gets people hung up is acceptable level of risk. By addressing a hazard and reducing a risk you can only reduce it so much until it becomes silly. If you want to be completely immune from harm, you remove the hazard (caustic, eletricity, drop bears etc.).
One man's acceptable level of risk is different to the next. I use gloves when I use oven cleaner (in the spray can) but not glasses. I wear earplugs when I mow the lawn but many others don't. We all assess risk differently and at the end of the days what's acceptable is up to the individual or business (which comprises individuals).
If S.E. doesn't want to wear glasses, great, he doesn't think there's enough risk of injury there to warrant it. I certainy wouldn't advocate not wearing glasses though when the worst outcome is blindness. But hey, I've used it without glasses not being wary of the risks.
Sparkies use voltage detection pens even though they're confident they've isolated the power - takes literally 2 seconds, and I'm certain has saved lives. Required not, acceptable effort to address the minimal risk yes (for most).

Caustic risks - not really worth arguing about whether you should wear protecton or not. Most people probably won't lose an eye cleaning their fermenters with it but you can be certain those that might won't be wearing goggles.

 

[Matplat]

I once cleaned an oven using a spray can of Mr Muscle whatever oven cleaner... I didn't have any gloves or goggles and didn't have time to go get some so I cleaned it bare handed, naked eyed (is that even a term?).

My hands would have been soaked in oven cleaner for a good 20 mins, albeit with intermittent rinsing.

After I finished my hands felt kinda slimy when wet then a bit tacky when dry.

It isn't something I would repeat given the option, but the consequences were nowhere near as bad as they can be made out. I think dissolving a corpse would take some extreme caustic concentrations and a reasonable amount of time.

There are many instances where extreme safety measures are appropriate (e.g. mining), but sometimes safety tends to get blown out of proportion a bit by companies having to cover their arse from law suits.

Like the Wiggman says, it is up to the individual to assess and mitigate risk for themselves, but I think that the individuals perceived level of risk has been perverted by the arse covering culture we have created for ourselves.

Cheers, Matt

 

[stux]

But what was it supposed to be connected to, what had it pulled free from? Was it supposed to be earthing a metal roof, water tank or something?

I'm not an electrician, but my understanding is there is supposed to be an earth circuit which runs back to the electrical cabinet, which is then connected to the earth stake.

The earth circuit would normally be carried as a 3rd wire in the 3 wire electrical wire used to connect stuff up.

In this case, the earth wire... was not connected to anything. it had not come free. It was simply never connected in the first place. Someone installing the fan took a few metres of loose earth wire, and pushed it up into the ceiling cavity. This means when you pulled the fan down, you could see the active, neutral and earth wires were all present, and the look like they were going into the cieling and doing there job... but if you pulled on the earth wire... it would just keep on coming, until you've removed the whole earth wire from the ceiling, and it wasn't connected.

Hence it wasn't earthed. When the wire fell out of the ceiling, is when the well experienced electrician went white.

Anyway, the electrician ran a new earth wire and connected it, and then checked the other fans, and found a couple more connected in the same way... ie... not.

Its worse to make it look properly connected, and not be, than to be obviously not connected.