HOPS BITTERING NO CHILL CUBING

[GABBA110360]

my question to the learned group is this.
adding hops @ 10 20 60 for example
I've been using knee hi stockings for each addition adding and removing at required times rather than throwing in loose
without the ability to remove at end of time.
if I remove all material even on a 5 min addition how can it effect the otherall bitterness if no chilled/
I had a discusion with another member a little while ago 1 hr
my question was then if this is unpredictable then what is the predictability if a chill rate to make IBU'S sorta in the ball park
icant see any hard and fast method of repeatabilty
cheers
ken

 

[MartinOC]

Ken,

I think maybe you're missing the point, but feel free to correct me if I've misunderstood your question & method...

A 60 minute addition is for bittering. Stick it in & leave it for 60 minutes.

A 20 minute addition is for flavour. Stick it in with 20 minutes left to go in the boil & leave it there (along with the 60 minute charge).

A 10 minute addition will give you a bit of flavour & a bit of aroma. Again, with 10 minutes left to go in the boil. You'd still have the 60 & 20 minute charges left in the boiler.

Why don't you have the ability to remove the hop-charges???

I'll try to answer what I THINK is your question with a bit of technobabble (sorry, Stu!!):

Most of the hop volatiles will go into solution pretty quickly once you add them to your boil, but it needs time & temperature to isomerise them into "bittering". That's why a 20/10 minute addition has less effect on bitterness than a 60 minute addition.

Isomerisation (ie. "bittering") will take place at 80+C, so even after you turn-off the heat source to the boiler, it will continue to isomerise the Alpha Acids unless you get it chilled below that point ASAP.

Dumping the contents of the boiler into a cube doesn't make much difference if it's still above 80C. That's why late (flavour/aroma) additions to a boil are pretty-much wasted if you're cubing - they'll just continue to isomerise & create bitterness & no character. Unless you chill your cube ASAP (doesn't that defeat the point of "no-chill"????).

Depending what you're trying to achieve, it might be better to simply bitter-charge your boil, cube/no-chill it, then make flavour/aroma/dry hop additions later on (lots of methods of doing that!).

Clear as mud??

 

[Crusty]

Ken,

I think maybe you're missing the point, but feel free to correct me if I've misunderstood your question & method...

A 60 minute addition is for bittering. Stick it in & leave it for 60 minutes.

A 20 minute addition is for flavour. Stick it in with 20 minutes left to go in the boil & leave it there (along with the 60 minute charge).

A 10 minute addition will give you a bit of flavour & a bit of aroma. Again, with 10 minutes left to go in the boil. You'd still have the 60 & 20 minute charges left in the boiler.

Why don't you have the ability to remove the hop-charges???

I'll try to answer what I THINK is your question with a bit of technobabble (sorry, Stu!!):

Most of the hop volatiles will go into solution pretty quickly once you add them to your boil, but it needs time & temperature to isomerise them into "bittering". That's why a 20/10 minute addition has less effect on bitterness than a 60 minute addition.

Isomerisation (ie. "bittering") will take place at 80+C, so even after you turn-off the heat source to the boiler, it will continue to isomerise the Alpha Acids unless you get it chilled below that point ASAP.

Dumping the contents of the boiler into a cube doesn't make much difference if it's still above 80C. That's why late (flavour/aroma) additions to a boil are pretty-much wasted if you're cubing - they'll just continue to isomerise & create bitterness & no character. Unless you chill your cube ASAP (doesn't that defeat the point of "no-chill"????).

Depending what you're trying to achieve, it might be better to simply bitter-charge your boil, cube/no-chill it, then make flavour/aroma/dry hop additions later on (lots of methods of doing that!).

Clear as mud??

Exactly how it happens.
I was no chilling for ages & it's convenient but too inconsistent for me.
I'm back to chilling now & the results are much more predictable & consistent.

 

[jonnir]

I'm only new to the game but I'm thinking of adding 60 min as per normal but adding the 20 to cube hop and anything under the 20 as dry hop

Again, only new to this but seems to most simple adjust

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

if I remove all material even on a 5 min addition how can it effect the otherall bitterness if no chilled/

I am gethering you put the 60min addition at the start of the boil and leave it in for 60min then remove,

This would be perfect for No-Chill, as No-Chill tends to increase the overall bitternes due to the fact that the hops are still isomerising as the wort cools down. Being able to remove all the hops before no-chilling should reduce the increase in bitterness. This is an issue with no-chill as it tends to lengthen your hop addition times by 5-10mins. Ie a normal 5min addition ends up more like a 10-15min addtion, and a 15min addition comes closer to a 25min, and to get a 5min addition you throw the hops straight in the hot cube.

 

[solipsist]

I've found it useful to think of hops as 2 separate things. This will be simplified and not strictly true but it helps me. Think hop solids and hop oils.

Hop solids (pellets/flowers) thrown into liquid of any temperature leak hop oil into the liquid. The warmer the liquid, the faster the oil is leaked out. The timing of adding and removing the hop SOLIDS affects how much hop oil is in the wort. And to some extent the type of oils leaked out.

If those hop OILS in the liquid are kept above 80deg (ie. boiled) they get more and more bitter.

For instance, you could have a hop bag in for only the first 10 mins of your 60 min boil, and you would get a lot of bittering, because the oils that leaked out in that 10 mins are then boiled for 50 mins, getting more and more bitter with every minute. Even though you've actually removed the hops for those last 50 mins.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

The longer your hops are in the kettle, the more oils released and more bitterness..

Dont forget hop utilization.

 

[GABBA110360]

I am gethering you put the 60min addition at the start of the boil and leave it in for 60min then remove,

This would be perfect for No-Chill, as No-Chill tends to increase the overall bitternes due to the fact that the hops are still isomerising as the wort cools down. Being able to remove all the hops before no-chilling should reduce the increase in bitterness. This is an issue with no-chill as it tends to lengthen your hop addition times by 5-10mins. Ie a normal 5min addition ends up more like a 10-15min addtion, and a 15min addition comes closer to a 25min, and to get a 5min addition you throw the hops straight in the hot cube.

that is basically what i'm getting at STU.
i'm using 15 denier stockings for each hop addition and completely removing them at the end of boil.
I think the brews I've done doing this are less bitter than letting them swim imoa.
I think even using a chiller to lower temps is probably to way to go but its results are not set in stone either because of vaiables such as ambient temp of cooling water etc.
I guess if I do the same thing every time the result should be fairly similar
cheers
ken

 

[GABBA110360]

Ken,

I think maybe you're missing the point, but feel free to correct me if I've misunderstood your question & method...

A 60 minute addition is for bittering. Stick it in & leave it for 60 minutes.

A 20 minute addition is for flavour. Stick it in with 20 minutes left to go in the boil & leave it there (along with the 60 minute charge).

A 10 minute addition will give you a bit of flavour & a bit of aroma. Again, with 10 minutes left to go in the boil. You'd still have the 60 & 20 minute charges left in the boiler.

Why don't you have the ability to remove the hop-charges???

I'll try to answer what I THINK is your question with a bit of technobabble (sorry, Stu!!):

Most of the hop volatiles will go into solution pretty quickly once you add them to your boil, but it needs time & temperature to isomerise them into "bittering". That's why a 20/10 minute addition has less effect on bitterness than a 60 minute addition.

Isomerisation (ie. "bittering") will take place at 80+C, so even after you turn-off the heat source to the boiler, it will continue to isomerise the Alpha Acids unless you get it chilled below that point ASAP.

Dumping the contents of the boiler into a cube doesn't make much difference if it's still above 80C. That's why late (flavour/aroma) additions to a boil are pretty-much wasted if you're cubing - they'll just continue to isomerise & create bitterness & no character. Unless you chill your cube ASAP (doesn't that defeat the point of "no-chill"????).

Depending what you're trying to achieve, it might be better to simply bitter-charge your boil, cube/no-chill it, then make flavour/aroma/dry hop additions later on (lots of methods of doing that!).

Clear as mud??

thanks for the reply.
I do totally remove all hop material at end of boil in an effort to be a bit more consistant.
I raised the subject with CRUSTY on the phone yesterday to get some thoughts and then threw it out to get more clarification on the subject
thanks for you detailed response
ken

 

[Yob]

that is basically what i'm getting at STU.
i'm using 15 denier stockings for each hop addition and completely removing them at the end of boil.
I think the brews I've done doing this are less bitter than letting them swim imoa.
I think even using a chiller to lower temps is probably to way to go but its results are not set in stone either because of variables such as ambient temp of cooling water etc.
I guess if I do the same thing every time the result should be fairly similar
cheers
ken

Whatever your method, whatever your system, repeatability is great to have.

If you were finding beers too bitter.. why not use less hops rather than fishing out the same amount?

Ground water temps shouldnt fluctuate that much from day to day and getting down below 80'c should happen pretty quickly..

Many of these things like Best IBU (*for your palate) come down to very minor adjustments in either quantities or time.. I found that (as a dedicated no chiller) some of my beers were too bitter so I did 2 things, I moved my 60 minute addition to 40 minutes and kept the amount the same and then decided on a ratio for kettle bittering for the beers, APA to get 1/4 total IBU from a kettle charge and IPA's to get 1/3 of the total bittering from the kettle charge..

Any flavour and aroma additions are moved to the cube and with that Ive found a much more rounded (and consistent) result.

Cheers

 

[TheWiggman]

To touch on what Yob's said, I followed this advice and found I was getting a bit of unwanted hop flavour from the later addition of bittering hops. I've found throwing 60 min additions at 55 is about ideal. I've done a few recipes with PoR (which is a pretty assertive hop) and would sooner drop the amount of hops than reduce the time in the kettle. Opposite of Yob and others, but works for me and suits my tastes.
With something like Cascade I'd rather add a bit later than drop the amount because I don't like subtle Cascade, I like a lot of it. So a 40 min addition would suit better in that case.

Try both.

10/5 mins additions go straight in the cube. What a smell when you tip it into the fermeter... mmmmmmmm.

 

[GABBA110360]

i thank those who responded to this thread.
the post came about after a phone convo and I thought id ask wider on my query's
as was the conversation between crusty and myself I was trying to get some feedback on hop utilisation
as throwing them in or completely separating each addition buy putting in stockingand removing on time as a base figure for repeatability
as a result of some replys i'm going to have a go at modifiying recipes to cube hop for a experiment
thanks ken

 

[indica86]

Dumping the contents of the boiler into a cube doesn't make much difference if it's still above 80C. That's why late (flavour/aroma) additions to a boil are pretty-much wasted if you're cubing - they'll just continue to isomerise & create bitterness & no character. Unless you chill your cube ASAP (doesn't that defeat the point of "no-chill"????).

Really? My beer must not have flavour then, hmmm wonder why I like it and all my friends do.
Why did I just taste cascade in my ale I just had a mouthful of?

 

[manticle]

I do a 20 min stand after flameout and add any 0 minute additions to the whirlpool. Wort has been measured at 80 going into cube so cube hopping would see even less isomerisation. Plenty of hop flavour for my tastes but I can taste hop flavour from single 60 minute additions too.
All about trying methods and tweaking to your tastes.

 

[Alex.Tas]

Dumping the contents of the boiler into a cube doesn't make much difference if it's still above 80C. That's why late (flavour/aroma) additions to a boil are pretty-much wasted if you're cubing - they'll just continue to isomerise & create bitterness & no character. Unless you chill your cube ASAP (doesn't that defeat the point of "no-chill"????).

Really? My beer must not have flavour then, hmmm wonder why I like it and all my friends do.
Why did I just taste cascade in my ale I just had a mouthful of?

I'd agree with Indica here, you will get some character from hops added to the last 10 min before whirl pooling and nochilling. Just as many have stated that they do get some character from their bittering additons (from say 60 min). However I don't think Martin truly meant that you will get no character from this addition, rather less flavour than a traditionally chilled 10 min addition. I think Martin's point is that if you are aiming for flavour from your 10 minute addition, you will get better "bang for your buck" flavour-wise if you cube this addition rather than add it to the boil ten minutes from the end. Feel free to correct me here if I've misinterpreted you though.

Personally when I form my recipes in beer smith i'll put a 60 min addition in, but actually add it 45 min from the end of the boil. If I were to do a 30 min addition i would actually add it 15 from the end of the boil. and a 15 min addition gets chucked straight into the cube. this way the numbers in beersmith get calculated to allow for an extended duration above the isomerisation threshold (80 degrees or there abouts).

From what I've read on this thread and a few others recently, once you add the hops to the hot wort, the oils are extracted from the hop biomass relatively quickly therefore even after the physical hop cones/pellet dust is removed the oils (the important bit) are still in solution and will continue to isomerise until the temperature drops below the threshold, regardless of the presence of the hop biomass.
What this means in a practical sense is that even though the bittering hops may only be in the wort for 45 min, the important bit - the oils will be in there for longer, simulating a traditionally chilled 60 min addition.

With regards to using stockings as hop socks:
When I used stockings for steeping grains and hop boils in extract brewing I realised that stockings have a fairly soluble dye and should be boiled a few times in water to 'rinse' this out. If you are using new ones each time as I was, (lazy and I love walking up to the checkout just to buy a pair of stockings h34r: ) I strongly suggest you get all of the dye out first. The colour of the water after rinsing them was disturbing. It was the colour of beer.
This process probably occurred to most people who use stockings in brewing, but I didn't really think about it until after a few brews.

 

[GABBA110360]

With regards to using stockings as hop socks:
When I used stockings for steeping grains and hop boils in extract brewing I realised that stockings have a fairly soluble dye and should be boiled a few times in water to 'rinse' this out. If you are using new ones each time as I was, (lazy and I love walking up to the checkout just to buy a pair of stockings h34r: ) I strongly suggest you get all of the dye out first. The colour of the water after rinsing them was disturbing. It was the colour of beer.
This process probably occurred to most people who use stockings in brewing, but I didn't really think about it until after a few brews.
hey thanks for that I never really thought about dyes in natural coloured stocking.
they are definitely my favourite colour lol!
you do get some comments at the checkout
cheers
ken

 

[mje1980]

No chill bittering is a preference thing. Ask 19 different brewers you'll get 34,567 answers and exactly 79 arguments. Do 4 or 5 of the same batch with different times/procedures and write down everything you did for each, then draw your own conclusions. It'll only take a few batches to dial in.

 

[fletcher]

i see the issue here. knee high stockings are being used. have them on your lady friend, not used for hops.

solved.