Hops and bittering, kit beers

[matt79hz]

Hey guys .. first post.

Recently I've attempted to make a seriously bitter beer. Before this I have only steeped hops which I understand only adds a small amount of flavour and aroma. After consultation with the local home brew store bloke, I've just put down this brew.

Coopers English bitter
1kg dextrose
roughly, 50min boil of 8gm Pride of ringwood. In about 800ml of water.
20min of a further 5gm
5min of 5grams more. (the total was roughly half of a copper tun 50gm pouch)

Yes, I understand POR is usually used in Australian beers.

This is far from an advanced brew but I just wanted to hear some feedback regarding whether or not I can expect a quality beer. Will the hops collate at the bottom, or will I have to syphon the wort before bottling ? I'm concerned as I tasted the wort straight from the tap and some of the hops came straight though. Only day 3 of fermentation.

Thanks for any help or advice.

 

[yum beer]

You should have filtered out the hops before adding to the fermenter thus avoiding the 'hops in tap' problem and also the increased amount of flavour and aroma you will develop.
Can you expect a quality brew?... I doubt it. POR does not go well in later additions, it is great for bittering 'Aussie' styles as you say,
If you want more bitterness try a 'toucan' brew or add some hops that are more appropriate for the style you are brewing(HBS dude should of been able to tell you that).
ah hahhaha, here comes another sucker I can offload this shity copper tun Pride Of Ringwood to...ah hahahaaha....

Do some reading around here matt and ask questions if you need, ask here not the HBS, he has played his weak hand, let those who can help, help.

 

[matt79hz]

ok, so besides the type and amount of hop, length of boil, and time of adding to the wort (which I can experiment with),
what would we suggest is the best process for a simple hop addition to kit beers? So I can bottle straight from the primary.
Simply straining ? perhaps through a clean material ?

And also, how would you suggest I bottle this crazy concoction, in order to avoid hoppy floaties and at least see how it turns out.
thx for your help, I will certainly read more. The options are completely limitless, I guess I'm just after a starting process to get a bit more bite and complexity out of the cans.

 

[wbosher]

I may be wrong as I've never boiled hops other than in a full volume BIAB set up, but if you want to extract bitterness from the hops shouldn't you be boiling it in wort rather than just water?

Edit: Sorry missed the comment above about adding to wort, just saw the original one about adding to water...as you were..

 

[Yob]

If you leave it to settle out for a few weeks (total ferment time) most of threshold will settle to the bottom, doesn't sound like you have the ability to cold condition which also helps.

When you move to bottle, do so very gently so as not to disturb it too much. There are other ways but the above (time) is the easiest.

Cheers

 

[Elderfi]

What is the potential downside from not straining the boiled wort into the FV? In regards to flavour/ aroma and why?

You should have filtered out the hops before adding to the fermenter thus avoiding the 'hops in tap' problem and also the increased amount of flavour and aroma you will develop.
Can you expect a quality brew?... I doubt it. POR does not go well in later additions, it is great for bittering 'Aussie' styles as you say,
If you want more bitterness try a 'toucan' brew or add some hops that are more appropriate for the style you are brewing(HBS dude should of been able to tell you that).
ah hahhaha, here comes another sucker I can offload this shity copper tun Pride Of Ringwood to...ah hahahaaha....

Do some reading around here matt and ask questions if you need, ask here not the HBS, he has played his weak hand, let those who can help, help.

Can you elaborate this please? I curious as i did not strain with my latestet brew which had 40 grms of cascade in the boil and 20 dry hopped. the whole lot is floating around in the FV. I'm not worried about the floaties as they all seem to drop out after fermentation is complete just wondering about the flavour impact?

 

[manticle]

Don't strain at bottling. You run the risk of oxidising the brew.

You also don't need to strain the hops when adding to the fermenter. You can but you don't need to. I wouldn't strain hot in any case.

They (hop bits) will drop to the bottom of the fermenter given enough time, which has other benefits. You may get a touch in the last few bottles if you bottle everything bar the yeast slurry. Mark the tops with an 'X' so you know not to give them away, give a couple of weeks to carb and use as testers. Chill right down and open over a sink as the extra particulate matter can cause gushing. Very chilled they should be fine and the rest should be fine (and don't drink the rest of your beer that cold if you want to taste anything).

PoR is a personal taste thing. Some people use and love it late. I have mainly used it for bittering but on its own so flavour still comes through. I don't mind it at all but it should be very fresh (all hops should but some cope better than others)

Next time add 100g of dry malt to every litre of water you boil. As gravity decreases, hop isomerisation (essentially the chemical process that allows bittering acids to be extracted from the hops) increases but supposedly some harsh compounds may also be extracted if the gravity is too low. 100g to 1 L should give you good utilisation and reduce the chance of harsh bittering. Too high and you struggle to get much in the way of bittering from your hops.

I repeat - do not strain finished beer unless you are using a proper beer filter.

To clarify - any solid ****, including hoppy green sludge at the bottom of a boil is best left behind but I wouldn't strain. Just allow most of it to settle and let it remain while you slowly our in the wort.

 

[mwd]

Get into KMart and get yourself a nylon kitchen strainer. They are very tough and you can strain out all the hop debris as you pour into the fermenter.

http://www.amazon.com/HIC-Brands-Cook-Strainer-7-Inch/dp/B0042X9XAY

 

[yum beer]

What is the potential downside from not straining the boiled wort into the FV? In regards to flavour/ aroma and why?


Can you elaborate this please? I curious as i did not strain with my latestet brew which had 40 grms of cascade in the boil and 20 dry hopped. the whole lot is floating around in the FV. I'm not worried about the floaties as they all seem to drop out after fermentation is complete just wondering about the flavour impact?

If you just tip everything into the fermenter the hops will continue to add to the brew, also known as 'dry hopping'. The hops will release more acids into the brew adding extra flavour and aroma(the fermentation will scrub some of this out) giving you a different result to what is expected.
If the recipe asks for dry hopping do it when the ferment is nearly finished. Anything added to the ketle, or boiled for an extract brew should be strained or otherwise left behind.

 

[pcmfisher]

If you are prepared to boil for that long, why not ditch the iso hopped tin and use unbittered malt and real hops for all your bittering.

You can bitter to your desired ibu and end up with a much better final product.

If you chill your pot down in the sink, most of the hop bits will sink to the bottom. Tip it into the fermenter and stop before the chunky stuff goes in.

Having said that I doubt it matters much if you tip some or all of the hop bits into your fermenter, except for maybe some floaties in the first and last few bottles.

I can't see much of a "dry hop" effect from hops that have been boiled for 60,30,10 mins or even flame out. Especially since even just fermentation drives off hop aroma.

 

[sp0rk]

Which brew shop did you go to?
The one in Nambucca, the one in Coffs or the one in Toormina?
I know it's a little bit of a drive, but in future try out Country Brewer in Toormina (in the Hi Tech industrial estate), Matt is a great guy and is a bit more knowledgeable about beer than the other 2 shops
If you're not doing anything this saturday, drop into Country Brewer as the Coffs Region Amateur Brewers are having their monthly meeting starting at 9am

 

[matt79hz]

Hey Thanks spork !

It was the coffs shop. While the guy at nambucca has a nice range, and good prices also, I'd never ask him a question about brewing. He's a salesman only.
I thought the coffs guy was pretty good. There's just so many variables of course. Cheers

 

[sticksy]

does it matter how big the boil is?
I dont have much in the way of big pots or space. is it possibe for me to do a hop boil for bittering and flavouring in a LDM/water mix in a four/five litre pot?

I was thinking of using two malt extract cans and mix that in with the hops/LDM mix in my fermenter, fill to 20L, pitch, ferment then dry hop?

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[Scottye]

That is a small boil for sure. Looks like a 3 litre boils is your limit, basically need to use more hops. IanH's spread sheet has a hop utilisation factor and I'd look at using that if I were you.

 

[sticksy]

cool thanks

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[menoetes]

I personally love adding finishing hops to my kit brews. I don't strain or bag my hops, I just pour them straight into the fermenting vat from the boiling pot. Just as a few others have said before me - if you let the brew settle the hop matter will drop to the bottom. POR is technically a bittering hop and it's flavor isn't for everyone but well done for trying something new, it's how we learn and become better brewers.

I like using this site http://www.homebrewstuff.com/hop-profiles when considering hops, it tells you how bitter they are, how they are used (bittering, flavor, aroma etc) and the styles they are used in. Just remember when you are adding to kits that they are already bittered, so generally you'll just want to add flavor and aroma.

I also use finings as I find they keep 95% of the matter on the bottom of the FV where it belongs (incl. hop matter). For $1.05 you can't go wrong with a pack of finings to help clear up your beer.

 

[sticksy]

only on to my third brew using kit n kilo (last was kit and malt can), when you say boiling pot how big is it and do you boil your kit/malt can with the hops or just in a water/LDM mix to be combined in the fermenter?

whats a good LDM/water ratio?

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[menoetes]

I just use a regular use a 8 liter pot for a 5 liter boil along with 400g - 500g of LDM, Manticle said it earlier, you want about 100g of malt for every liter of water to get the best flavor/aroma out of your hops. Though when you are just modifying a kit and kilo brew, a lot of people are just happy to make a tea from the hops (in about 500ml of hot water from the kettle soaked for 5 - 10 minutes) and add it straight to the FV.

I think the extra effort with the pot makes a difference (and is more fun) but that's a matter of opinion. Try not to boil your kit too much is you can help it, there's hop oil already in there and boiling can make it even more pronounced and bitter.

 

[sticksy]

hey menoetes, can you boil the hops in a lower volume? say 3L in a 5L pot with 300g LDM?

if so, would it affect the boil time?

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[pat86]

hey menoetes, can you boil the hops in a lower volume? say 3L in a 5L pot with 300g LDM?
if so, would it affect the boil time?

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You can as far as I know - I'm a newb, but just did a 30 minute boil yesterday which was 3L. I had 250g of malt (steeped first) and 200g or LDME for the 3 L boil.

I used Ianh's spreadsheet - which has a section which will tell you how much LME or DME to add to the boil based on your ingredients (e.g. Malt, LME, DME) and the volume. Because I was using one can of Kit (pre-bittered) and one can of LME, I didn't need a really long boil - so I added hops at:

30 mins (20g)
10 mins (20g)
5 mins (10g)


The aim from what I've read is just to have the wort at 1040 SG when you are boiling hops. The amount of time for boiling is just up to you depending on how much hops you are using and how bitter you want it to be. Seems like 15 mins - 90 mins is quite standard. If I wasn't using a pre-hopped can, I might have done a 60 minute boil otherwise I would be using a tonne of hops.

Edit: Also regarding pot size - I ran to take a piss and had it boil over, that is 3L in a 6-8 L pot... and I have a pretty healthy prostate! A bigger pot would probably be better but if not keep your eyes on it.