Homebrew Twang

[kelbygreen]

yeah I got a carton of oettinger sitting in the fridge for if I run out of beer and I must say after drink PA and hoppy beers for months straight I cracked one of them and my face screwed up in disgust lol I used to live on the stuff, as you say after a few it grows on slowly but the first taste was like WOW thats no good

 

[altstart]

I started bewing kits in 1977 and I was happy with the results. I tasted my first AG beer in 2005 at a brew day at Ross's place and the difference was staggering almost an epiphany. I immediately went into AG full bore. My first attemtps were disasters but over the years experience gained and the addition of a herms system and the control of mash PH have produced the results I wanted. There is no comparison between Kit beers and AG brewed beer.
Cheers Altstart

 

[pcmfisher]

It doesn't taste like AG beer. Why?

What are the characteristics that differentiate it from your AG beer?

What are the origins of these characters?

Why is it that if you do a mini boil with some hops, and replace the kit can with plain malt extract does it improve significanty?

I've done all this. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, but I know which ingredient I'm not putting in my beer anymore ... the hopped can of goop.

Totally agree!

 

[pcmfisher]

Now, I'm not a beer expert or anything but I'd like to think I've consumed my fair share of different beers over the years.

I make kit beers exclusively, which may be why, but I don't understand what this "twang" is? I can sincerely say that every beer I've ever made from a kit has been very tasty, except the very first, in which I somehow managed to kill my yeast.

Can anybody describe the "twang"? I have a glass of my "Kit" beer in my hand right this moment. I'm open to suggestion.

Alright, I've had quite a number of glasses this night, but this is the freshest one!

You may like your beers but, do offense intended, I would just about guarantee that if you were to taste a good all grain beer or even one made with unbittered malt and fresh hops you would understand what kit twang is in an instant.

I was under the same delusion for years!

 

[Yob]

'twang' can certainly be masked with enough effort

Ive swapped kits and bits at case swaps against AG brews and got some very nice feedback indeed HERE and HERE

and my favorite kit (& bits) beer review HERE

I would have to say though that the brewdays for these were as long as an AG Brew session but only half as much fun.

I rate Kit beers (if handled correctly) up there with AG but I found that they dont really hold up well with age, lighter APA's and such anyway.. It will be ineresting to see if the AG's I produce will hold up better.

Yob

 

[yum beer]

Now, I'm not a beer expert or anything but I'd like to think I've consumed my fair share of different beers over the years.

I make kit beers exclusively, which may be why, but I don't understand what this "twang" is? I can sincerely say that every beer I've ever made from a kit has been very tasty, except the very first, in which I somehow managed to kill my yeast.

Can anybody describe the "twang"? I have a glass of my "Kit" beer in my hand right this moment. I'm open to suggestion.

Alright, I've had quite a number of glasses this night, but this is the freshest one!

I find it hard to believe you don't notice the twang, but to give an example,
I have moved to AG for my last 7 batches from doing kits, I have a mate still doing kits who hadnt tried an AG yet.
He came round one Saturday to watch a brew day and brought along a longie of his latest kit pilsener, his best beer to date that he was wrapped with. He poured a glass each and tried it out, straight away there was that twang, the beer was nice enough but twang.
After his brew I cracked one of my AG pilseners, he nearly fucken died.
Yes, we convince ourselves that our kit beers taste good and that the wierd taste is not that bad and hell we even get used to it, drink em fast and dont take the time to taste them and you dont really notice the twang, but end of the day, until you swirl a good swig of AG brew around your mouth you just dont know how big the difference is.

 

[Impy]

Impy, you got any simple example recipes?

Sorry for the late reply. Didn't log on all weekend.

A simple pale ale might be something like (just off the top of my head)

3kg Pale Unhopped DME
200g Crystal Malt

Boil volume 10L
20g Chinook @ 60
30g Cascade @ 15
30g Cascade Dry Hop into fermenter before pitching yeast.

Yeast: US-05 Dry yeast

Ferment volume 23L

Instructions:
- Line pot with muslin cloth and steep crystal malt in 10L 70C water.
- Remove and strain grain using muslin cloth.
- Bring to boil and start hop schedule.
- When hop schedule is finished cool liquid (I put my boil pot into my bath with some ice water)
- add liquid from pot into fermenter & top up with cold water to 23L
- Dry Hop
- Pitch yeast when liquid is ~25C

Also check the Recipe DB on this site. It has some good extract recipes.

 

[bum]

'twang' can certainly be masked with enough effort...

...but I found that they dont really hold up well with age

I agree completely. When I first started brewing I swore I wouldn't go AG (seemed like too much work for the same or similar output) but pretty soon I realised the twang wasn't something that I was doing and wouldn't go away with experience. So I worked pretty hard at covering it up. I can confidently say I did this a couple of times but as the beer faded/mellowed (as all beers must) the twang always came to the fore. Spending 3 hours and maybe $40+ on a kit beer started making going AG look pretty attractive. Turns out the process is as enjoyable as the final product (from my brewery anyway...)

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

I can't drink Oettinger anymore, for the record.

Tricking up a kit beer, without even trying to get rid of twang, starts to render the economic benefits of homebrewing nonexistent. A good batch of AG is about half the cost.

I gave a bronze medal beer to a mate, who raved about it. I criticised the beer he was raving about and said the judges nailed the problems correctly. He's a Fat Yak drinker and was gobsmacked that I was so critical.

That's what good AG does. You don't put up with average beer, as in one's kit days. Instead you critique harshly what are reasonable beers to the above average palate.

Goomba

 

[slash22000]

A good batch of AG is about half the cost.

Unless you're stuck in Darwin and it costs $70+ for grain delivery per batch. :huh:

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Unless you're stuck in Darwin and it costs $70+ for grain delivery per batch. :huh:

This is where you'd need to buy by the sack.

I guess it'd be like that with a lot of things in the further reaches of this great brown land.

 

[tanked84]

Fresh wort kits don't seem to have this twang. Would they be considered all grain or partial?

 

[Crusty]

Fresh wort kits don't seem to have this twang. Would they be considered all grain or partial?

All Grain.

 

[kelbygreen]

$70+ for a batch wow! I put a batch on the weekend cost $36 for 42lts into fermenters thats for 9.82kg of grain and 99g of hops. (I had the yeast already) and OG was 1.049 so it was a full strength (prob about 5%).

Feel sorry for you

 

[Droughtmaster]

I brew with a all grain Bruimeister system that was my introduction to all grain beer .
before that all i did was coopers kits .
when i get low on beer and cant be ****** ill put down a coopers sparkling ale with there light liquid malt works for me mever had a homebrew twang with that combination.i have tasted that twang that seems to follow brewerers but i thought that was long gone

 

[Droughtmaster]

$70+ for a batch wow! I put a batch on the weekend cost $36 for 42lts into fermenters thats for 9.82kg of grain and 99g of hops. (I had the yeast already) and OG was 1.049 so it was a full strength (prob about 5%).

Feel sorry for you

geeze costs me that if i buy grains and yeast for a 25 ltr batch

 

[kelbygreen]

yeah well I buy aussie malt mainly and the LHBS does it cracked about the same price as bulk buying a bag so I cant complain I dont have to buy a mill and the quality is good but for a comp or what not maybe go with a grain from the country the style is from but you can build it up to what you want anyway.

give you a idea last recipe:

Pilsner (MEU Au) 8.280kg - $22.77
Wheat Malt (AUS) 1.230kg - $4.17
Cara Hell (GER) 306g - $1.18

 

[fletcher]

well i can safely say, after doing my first kit brew and subsequently now tasting it (and the twang); and after reading these comments and many other posts about how easy and workable BIAB is, i'm sold. consider me a believer. my second brew will be a BIAB and i'm so pumped for it.

 

[dammag]

Are there any concerns using polyester for the brew bag? It is curtain material?, not food grade?

 

[Crusty]

well i can safely say, after doing my first kit brew and subsequently now tasting it (and the twang); and after reading these comments and many other posts about how easy and workable BIAB is, i'm sold. consider me a believer. my second brew will be a BIAB and i'm so pumped for it.

You'll love it.

Are there any concerns using polyester for the brew bag? It is curtain material?, not food grade?

Swiss Voile is what you're after.
Easier to just buy this & get one of these for tossing your hops into.

 

[grantsglutenfreehomebrew]

I haven't read every comment on this thread but any sugar used including carbonation drops will cause a tang. 5g of sugar as a primer is the equivalent of another 300g of sugar in your brew. If you've gone a kit and 1 kg of sugar that's 1.3kg of tang. Like some others have said good yeast and constant brewing temps (preferably at the lower end of the scale) are good but remember when conditioning bottles you are still brewing. So try not to oxygenate the beer when bottling, prime with LDME or as I do by saving 2-300g of LME from recipe. Mix with one cup of water and boil for 10 mins. Add 5ml of this per 330ml stubby. I use a syringe. Do not shake when lid is on. Bottle condition at same constant temp as primary fermentation. Hey presto. No tang.

 

[Parks]

I haven't read every comment on this thread but any sugar used including carbonation drops will cause a tang.

I disagree with this whole-heartedly.

Sugars will certainly give a certain flavour but IMO the twang comes 100% from the processed wort, AKA goop. I have also detected a similar taste making a 100% extract batch with LDME, not as strong but it's there.

 

[bignath]

I haven't read every comment on this thread but any sugar used including carbonation drops will cause a tang. 5g of sugar as a primer is the equivalent of another 300g of sugar in your brew. If you've gone a kit and 1 kg of sugar that's 1.3kg of tang. Like some others have said good yeast and constant brewing temps (preferably at the lower end of the scale) are good but remember when conditioning bottles you are still brewing. So try not to oxygenate the beer when bottling, prime with LDME or as I do by saving 2-300g of LME from recipe. Mix with one cup of water and boil for 10 mins. Add 5ml of this per 330ml stubby. I use a syringe. Do not shake when lid is on. Bottle condition at same constant temp as primary fermentation. Hey presto. No tang.

I completely disagree with most of this.
Using sugar in brewing certain styles not only does not create twang, it's often called for as part of the style guidelines for certain beers.
Anything (ok, most things) with an Australian style guide, will have a relatively high sugar %, and if you don't use it, it won't get you close to certain beers' characteristics, both good ones and bad ones.

Using sugar doesn't mean you'll get twang, in the same way as not using it, doesn't mean you'll avoid twang.

Also, not trying to nitpick, but i wouldn't suggest going for the lower end of the fermentation temp range for a yeast is always a good idea either. Go too low into the range and a lot of yeasts will struggle. As soon as yeast struggles to stay awake and eat, they can throw or cause some unwanted (or intentional for certain beers) flavours to develop. I understand your intention about the yeast temp, just thought it might be relevant to eliminate as many off flavours, to suggest that it's not always a good idea to go the lower end.

IE: from memory....i think the quoted operating range for US05 can go down to 14 or 15 but i wouldn't use it there. 18-20 seems to be generally accepted as the best range for that yeast. The upper working end i think is around 22-24 (once again, from memory).
Often middle of the range is best for the yeast to be comfortable.

 

[Nick JD]

I made an AG Belgian Saison last summer with 35% sucrose in it and fermented it between 30 and 35C.

No twang. Freakin delecious.

 

[Impy]

I haven't read every comment on this thread but any sugar used including carbonation drops will cause a tang. 5g of sugar as a primer is the equivalent of another 300g of sugar in your brew. If you've gone a kit and 1 kg of sugar that's 1.3kg of tang.

I disagree.

Firstly, I think it would be INCREDIBLY unusual for someone to use plain table sugar in a kit beer (the instructions these days say to use DME)

Plus, sugar creating the twang is an old myth, it quite simply isn't true (especially not carbonation drop qty). Plenty of beer styles have relatively large quantities of plain sugar in them with no twang being present.

 

[JDW81]

I haven't read every comment on this thread but any sugar used including carbonation drops will cause a tang.

Really?

I've bottled my last few brews with table sugar and none of them have any tang what so ever. I even used carb drops in my last hefeweizen as I was being lazy (and don't mind the extra fizz for that style) and it is the best one I have made by a long shot.

I even did a side by side test of the same beer with one batch carbonated with LDME and the other with sugar and there is no discernible difference.

Cheap kits and poor brewing/handling/sanitisation techniques will give you a tang. Adding sugar to a brew in levels that are appropriate to style or for carbonation purposes will most definitely not.

 

[RobboMC]

Sad to say but cheap kits and poor brewing practices usually exist both in large amounts for new brewers. I remember the first ever beer that I made, flat twangy and awful.

After many years it's fair to say I'm a kits n bits n bits n bits n bits brewer. I use high end kits like Thomas Coopers or Muntons, commercial dried yeast and lots of specialty rains and hops. I'm sure the brew comp judges can identify the liquid extract source of my malt, by few others can pick it amongst the rest of the flavours.
Use the best kits you can get, the freshest malt possible, and add plenty of hops. You can make really great
beer without going AG.

I don't have time to do a decent hop boil some brew nights, and have even sometimes gone back to straight kit and kilo in desperation of having nothing to drink. An AG set-up would be nice, so would a Ferrari in the garage, we can't all have evrything.

 

[SnakeRider]

Just read this, going to revive as I have done 3 kit beers at 25-30C ferment temp, and done the following experiment on them all...

I bottled 12 330ml bottles, 4 primed with carbonation drops, 4 with caster sugar, and 4 with brown sugar....

my first beer was horrible... rocket fuel... didn't take notes but holy hell, never doing a mangrove jacks blonde again...

my second 2 were identical coopers sparkling ale with a 'cold pack'/brew enhancer fermented at 25-30+C primed the same way.

I just had the first taste of my second batch (at 10 days),
drank a 330 of each carbonation drop, caster sugar, and brown sugar primed bottles... and here is my conclusion for both batches (took notes on the first batch)..

The carbonation drops have a definite twang in comparison to both other priming methods... its terrible, I can even smell the twang.
The caster sugar is slightly better, not as much fruity punch on the tongue, and less smell
and the brown sugar is actually quite enjoyable, but still there is a twang (at 10 days no surprise)

now... before I jumped to this conclusion, on separate days on the last batch I drank them in different orders to eliminate the 'pissed now, its all good, keep em coming' variable off the table. I still came to the same conclusion.

*shrugs* I believe priming medium does make a difference, as a result of this controlled experiment, even though I am a complete novice, I have proven to myself that this is not a myth as stated above.

my 2C :chug:

SR

 

[fletcher]

Just read this, going to revive as I have done 3 kit beers at 25-30C ferment temp, and done the following experiment on them all...

I bottled 12 330ml bottles, 4 primed with carbonation drops, 4 with caster sugar, and 4 with brown sugar....

my first beer was horrible... rocket fuel... didn't take notes but holy hell, never doing a mangrove jacks blonde again...

my second 2 were identical coopers sparkling ale with a 'cold pack'/brew enhancer fermented at 25-30+C primed the same way.

I just had the first taste of my second batch (at 10 days),
drank a 330 of each carbonation drop, caster sugar, and brown sugar primed bottles... and here is my conclusion for both batches (took notes on the first batch)..

The carbonation drops have a definite twang in comparison to both other priming methods... its terrible, I can even smell the twang.
The caster sugar is slightly better, not as much fruity punch on the tongue, and less smell
and the brown sugar is actually quite enjoyable, but still there is a twang (at 10 days no surprise)

now... before I jumped to this conclusion, on separate days on the last batch I drank them in different orders to eliminate the 'pissed now, its all good, keep em coming' variable off the table. I still came to the same conclusion.

*shrugs* I believe priming medium does make a difference, as a result of this controlled experiment, even though I am a complete novice, I have proven to myself that this is not a myth as stated above.

my 2C :chug:

SR

i'll tell you what makes the twang:

1. didn't take notes
2. 3 kit beers at 25-30C ferment temp/fermented at 25-30+C

EDIT: i'm sorry, but this is laughable. you haven't proven anything

 

[SnakeRider]

i'll tell you what makes the twang:

1. didn't take notes
2. 3 kit beers at 25-30C ferment temp/fermented at 25-30+C

EDIT: i'm sorry, but this is laughable. you haven't proven anything

The experiment was to test the priming medium... what did i not prove?
3 bottles from same batch with different priming medium and 3 different results...
consistent over 2 batches.

not sure how else you could conduct such an experiment.