HLT water transfer with a pump advice needed!

[welly2]

So I've got all my gear set up and ready to go - hopefully my first brew day with the new gear this weekend. I'm happy with the individual vessels but my apartment kind of limits me. Basically I'll be brewing in the kitchen but will take the boiling pot on to the balcony to do that part of the brew. The problem I've got immediately is I'll be using a gravity fed system with my HLT on top of my fermenting fridge down to the mash tun on a table in the kitchen and the boiling pot on the floor (before I take it outside).

Getting water into the HLT is going to be a little bit of an inconvenience - climbing on a stool to get up to fridge top level to fill the tank - so was thinking perhaps I should get a pump of some description to at least get water from the HLT to the mash tun during both the mash and the sparge stages. So, in short, does anyone have any pump recommendations that would be suitable for hot sparge water and any advice about a system like this? I'm not going to be building a RIMS system - simply don't have the space sadly. Just want to make my water transfer a bit less cumbersome.

 

[welly2]

This is what I'm talking about in the way I'm set up:

 

[benno1973]

What are you filling the HLT from? Presumably not a tap, or you could run a long hose from the tap up to the HLT?

Also, I assume that you need a pump so that you can bring the HLT down onto the table to allow for refilling, and the pump would be used to pump from the HLT to the mash tun?

Those 12V brown pumps are still around. They are food grade and handle high temps, and are cheap to boot ($20-25) if you're not wanting to lash out on a more permanent alternative. If you want something more permanent, you could try the (still relatively cheap, around $70) Keg King pump or Kiaxin pump.

Or alternatively, you could work out a way to pump cold water into the HLT and leave it sitting up on your fridge?

 

[zeggie]

You can get cheap foodsafe hose from Bunnings or Masters, or look at the little brown pumps that Kaiser mentioned.

 

[Kodos]

How are you heating the sparge water? (Does the HLT have an element in it?)

Where is your water source? (Could you run a hose straight into the HLT?)

I would recommend getting a sight glass of some sort on the HLT, it would be v hard to know how full the vessel is without one.

Alternatively, if you're considering a pump you could keep the HLT at the same height as your mash tun and pump the sparge water into the mash tun.

 

[Kodos]

Sorry, wrote earlier but only just posted now when KS and Zeggie had already said essentially the same thing.

 

[jeremy]

Hey mate,

Since your setup looks mighty familiar I thought I would offer some advice. Basically I have the same setup as you and I have all three vessels at the same level (bench level). At first I would put the mash tun on the floor and run the water from the HLT to the mash tun and lift it to the bench top, then at sparge point put the keggle on the floor and while that filled just use a jug to transfer sparge water on top of the mash tun (fly sparge), then (carefully) lift the keggle up to the bench top, then on top of my burner and start the boil.

I bought a pump to pump the water from my mash to my kettle, then recently bought another little brown pump to pump from my HLT to my mash tun. Now I run from HLT tap to mash tun tap for Mash In, then from mash tun tap to the top of the mash tun for re-circ, then run both pumps at once during sparge (mash tun tap to kettle, HLT tap to top of mash tun). I find this works very well and keeps my system very simple and quick and easy to assemble and disassemble. Note that I use a tradie/painters platform to get a good look at the inside of my vessels during brewday. Here are some pics of what I do now:

During mash-in (on the HLT tap on the left there is a "little brown pump" attached directly to the tap RRP: $23.95 from Keg King):


During sparge (little brown pump is transferring the sparge water, a different type of pump is handling the transfer to kettle RRP: $69.95 from Keg King, both are perfectly adequate):


During sparge from above:


As mentioned above this is where I am at at the moment but I used to do the whole lot without pumps with a little bit of lifting. It was difficult and dangerous though, this is much safer and easier!

Cheers,

Jeremy.

 

[jeremy]

Sorry, I re-read my post and its more of a "this is what I do", but since I use similar equipment, and two different pumps hopefully you will be able to see something useful in there.

Reading back over your post and you said you are going to "take" your boiling pot outside. Not sure what volume we are talking here but if you are able to carry your kettle out to your balcony when it is full, you should also be able to lift your mash tun to table height?

If that's the case wouldn't you be just as well putting your HLT on the table, transferring to your mash tun (on the floor) from there, then lifting the mash tun to the table and transferring the sparge water to the top of the mash 1 jug at a time while it drains to the kettle on the floor? Another 2c for you anyway...

Cheers,

Jeremy.

 

[welly2]

Sorry, I re-read my post and its more of a "this is what I do", but since I use similar equipment, and two different pumps hopefully you will be able to see something useful in there.

Reading back over your post and you said you are going to "take" your boiling pot outside. Not sure what volume we are talking here but if you are able to carry your kettle out to your balcony when it is full, you should also be able to lift your mash tun to table height?

If that's the case wouldn't you be just as well putting your HLT on the table, transferring to your mash tun (on the floor) from there, then lifting the mash tun to the table and transferring the sparge water to the top of the mash 1 jug at a time while it drains to the kettle on the floor? Another 2c for you anyway...

Cheers,

Jeremy.

Cheers for the feedback and suggestions! I'm going to be fly sparging with a sparge arm and so the HLT will need to be higher than the mash tun for that reason. I wonder if an additional pump for the sparge arm might allow me to have everything on the same level? I'm liking what you're doing with those pumps and would be a better solution than what I've got at the moment.

Not sure if it's going to be a bit ambitious of me to take the boiling pot outside to boil - only reason I wanted to do that was so I don't have an apartment with wall to wall condensation. The trials and tribulations of living in a small apartment...

I think for this first up coming brew day, I might move the mash tun about as you've suggested above rather than the HLT as I'll probably never get it on top of the fridge when its full of water and then get a couple of pumps ordered for all vessels to be on the same level.

Thanks again!

 

[welly2]

How are you heating the sparge water? (Does the HLT have an element in it?)

Where is your water source? (Could you run a hose straight into the HLT?)

I would recommend getting a sight glass of some sort on the HLT, it would be v hard to know how full the vessel is without one.

Alternatively, if you're considering a pump you could keep the HLT at the same height as your mash tun and pump the sparge water into the mash tun.

Yeah, got heating elements in the HLT and boiling pot. The water source will probably be a tedious system of 2L jugs of water immediately until I get something else sorted!

And yeah, a sight glass will definitely be in order. That'll be next.

Thanks all for the feedback!

 

[MartinOC]

Somewhere on this forum (since I haven't got them stored on my bloody computer!!), I've got piccies of what I reckon would be perfect for you & is very flexible.

It allows HLT recirc. via LBP (prevents stratification). The same pump delivers to the sparge arm via a digital multi-speed controller to regulate your fly-sparge speed (if you're on a single level), or gravity feed for sparge (pump turned off, juggle the ball-valve) if you've got multiple levels.

I'll see if I can find the thread for you & come back with a link.

 

[JDW81]

Any reason you can't do the whole lot on the balcony? Put your HLT on a milk crate on a table, MLT on a chair and kettle on the ground. I did that for years on a tiny little balcony and it worked a charm. No pumps, No Chill!

 

[TheWiggman]

The little brown pump and Kiaxins mentioned above will suit you well. For the record, the 'head' of the pump will be in metres or kPa (ideally).

kPa / 9.8 = head in metres (for water)

The head means the equivalent height the pump will pump the liquid it's designed to pump. If it's designed for water - which these are - 3.4m head means it'll move water up to but not beyond 3.4m.
Head is measured between the surface of the liquid being pumped to the outlet.
The higher you are pumping, the slower the flow rate until it stalls at its max head.
The denser the liquid, the lower the height it will pump (divide specified head by speficic gravity as per your hydrometer to give you your new max height).

LBP = 3.2m
Kaixin = 3.4m

So for your setup you're sweet with either of those. Seeing as you are doing all grain you will be eventually buying pumps at numerous stages while you upgrade, so if you don't spend the money now you will later

 

[antiphile]

I wasn't aware of the Klaxins, soI'll have to get me some of that.

For a similar sort of arrangement, I opted for the little brown pump. The main reason is I don't understand this new fangled thing called mains power and it scares the bejeesus out of me, especially around water and other liquids. The Brown pump riuns on low voltage DC, so you can hook it up to a couple of rather cheap batteries (or if you want to go the Super Deluxe route, you can even make them rehargeable 1.5 V batteries) and still have peace of mind.

Just my 2 kopeks.

 

[Feldon]

Just looking at the picture of your set-up, I can't really tell if you have anything under the HLT to insulate it from the refrigerant coils in the top of the fridge.

I think you need something inbetween to prevent heat transfer, like a piece of plywood (something solid and non-slippy slidy - you don't want all that hot water tipping over).

Another 2c (you're getting rich!)

Good luck with it.

 

[MHB]

For a couple of dollars you can get a rubber hose connector and a few of meters of clear vinyl tube, that should let you fill the HLT easily enough.
In my experience gravity never breaks down, so a nice simple gravity feed system is a great way to get started.
Mark

 

[jeremy]

Not trying to take this thread in a different direction at all, but is there an issue with using garden hose and traditional connections when putting water in your HLT? Its what I used to do... h34r:

Obviously this doesn't work to run water from your kitchen sink, but even on a second story would you not have an old fashioned tap on your balcony or in your laundry?

 

[welly2]

Not trying to take this thread in a different direction at all, but is there an issue with using garden hose and traditional connections when putting water in your HLT? Its what I used to do... h34r:

Obviously this doesn't work to run water from your kitchen sink, but even on a second story would you not have an old fashioned tap on your balcony or in your laundry?

I'll certainly have a look. The laundry in my apartment is downstairs (it's a shared laundry) - I've got two balconies so *surely* one of them must have a tap. Will look tonight! I can't say I've noticed one though. I suspect the water will probably have to come from the kitchen sink via a hose pipe.

 

[welly2]

Just looking at the picture of your set-up, I can't really tell if you have anything under the HLT to insulate it from the refrigerant coils in the top of the fridge.

I think you need something inbetween to prevent heat transfer, like a piece of plywood (something solid and non-slippy slidy - you don't want all that hot water tipping over).

Another 2c (you're getting rich!)

Good luck with it.

Yeah, I've made a little wooden rack to put the HLT and boiling kettle on top of. I thought that might be wise!

 

[TheWiggman]

Now sure if you worded it right to begin with Welly but was the issue to do with getting water on top of your fridge? Copypasta -

"Getting water into the HLT is going to be a little bit of an inconvenience - climbing on a stool to get up to fridge top level to fill the tank - so was thinking perhaps I should get a pump of some description to at least get water from the HLT to the mash tun during both the mash and the sparge stages."

Getting water into the HLT - one problem
Water from the HLT to the mash - completely different

If you want to move water up, get a pump. If you want it down, as per MHB. Or maybe use the connector that MHB suggested and use tap pressure and a hose to pour straight into the HLT from the tap.
Otherwise you have a 3 tier system, which is very common thanks to gravity.