Herms Temp Monitoring

[Crusty]

Hi all,

After some discussions with more knowledgeable herms brewers than myself, I would like some opinions on temp control & monitoring for my new hems rig. At this stage, I am looking at either 70lt HLT, 50lt MashTun & 98lt kettle or 98lt HLT, 70lt MashTun & 98lt kettle. I will be mainly doing 50lt batches & occasionally 23lt batches if trying out a new recipe. I will probably not install any gauges on the vessels at all & rely on digital control. Please advise if you would do differently.

HLT, 3600watt element, PID controller
Mashtun, Tempmate to monitor grain or mash temp, Tempmate to monitor liquid exiting the MashTun & Tempmate to monitor liquid going back to the MashTun after the herms coil.
Herms vessel, 3600watt element, PID controller
Tempmate to monitor plate chiller temp as well.

So, thats 2 x PID controllers, 4 x Tempmate controllers, no dial gauges on any vessels.
I am thinking about not using dial gauges because quite a number of brewers out there have stressed their unreliability & mention that they are often in the way.

Crusty

 

[seravitae]

i think thats a bit overkill mate, one PID/power controller with the temp sensor directly after the herms coil on your mash tun will be fine.

 

[Gout]

I run a PID (overkill i feel - an on off controller may be as good) for my HLT, a PID for the HERMS/mash and a dial on my chiller.

The dial may not be as good as digital but it fits inline well, and is good enough for me as i can only get it as cold as my cooling water (tank) so its more a indication of how i am going.

I would start out simple and if you have money to burn then maybe buy more and upgrade... but i think you would be happy.

Also worth a note: i brew outside (wheel my stand out to brew) and the sun makes digital read outs hard to read some days.

 

[Crusty]

sera,

I am trying to do away with dial gauges, I am basically replacing the dials with digitals.
Beerbelly ran 4 digital controllers on the Brewboy so I don't think it's overkill. Monitoring the Mash Temp digitally instead of using the dial gauges is far more reliable & accurate. Monitoring the Mash at rest as well as monitoring the wort exiting the MashTun & monitoring the wort re-entering the MashTun after the Herms coil will give me a pretty good idea of what's going on in the grain bed. I definately want PID for herms vessel as temp overshoot is quite common I believe in systems using a controller such as Tempmate. PID also for HLT for the same reason. Dial gauges look good but for not a great deal more, I can get the digital controller, I would rather the digital stuff any day. After speaking to some very experienced herms brewers on this forum, a member mentioned that if he was doing it all over again, he would not fit any dial gauges at all.

Crusty

 

[seravitae]

It sounds like you dont want to put dial guages on there which is fine. Just see that a full fridgemate/tempmate is not a cheap, practical or necessary requirement.

The beerbelly system does have 4 controllers but I strongly advise you not to fall into the trap of "some company sells it so it must be good/important/required" - no offence whatsoever to beerbelly equipment (great gear!).

There are so many variables from grain to brain that can impact the quality of your beer. I am just speaking from mild experience in that putting 850 temp sensors on system is not going to make your beer taste better. Remember that championship beers have been brewed BIAB style and/or single infusion esky setups with arguably quite poor to no temperature control.

The bottom line is you can brew danm good beers (comp winning beers too) in any style of system using only one tempmate. If you want to get 4 of them, or 40, or 400, that's up to you - but just realise that it is more bling/shiny equipment factor than actual practical use.

Basically what it boils down to is - and what I can tell from your messages is that you've already decided you're going to get 4 PID/tempmates. You don't need them, but you want them, which is all the justification you need, so get on ya bike and buy em already



P.S you can buy $5 0.1C res 1C accuracy digital thermometers, which might be a better way to check on things.

 

[woodmac66]

sera,

I am trying to do away with dial gauges, I am basically replacing the dials with digitals.
Beerbelly ran 4 digital controllers on the Brewboy so I don't think it's overkill. Monitoring the Mash Temp digitally instead of using the dial gauges is far more reliable & accurate. Monitoring the Mash at rest as well as monitoring the wort exiting the MashTun & monitoring the wort re-entering the MashTun after the Herms coil will give me a pretty good idea of what's going on in the grain bed. I definately want PID for herms vessel as temp overshoot is quite common I believe in systems using a controller such as Tempmate. PID also for HLT for the same reason. Dial gauges look good but for not a great deal more, I can get the digital controller, I would rather the digital stuff any day. After speaking to some very experienced herms brewers on this forum, a member mentioned that if he was doing it all over again, he would not fit any dial gauges at all.

Crusty

Crusty,
As you are aware I am looking at the PID for Herms, I feel tempmate is more than enough for HLT.
The main reason I added gauges is a guage is far more reliable than digital and in practice I do look at both.
The brew I did this weekend I realised I had an issue with my tempmate probe due to the variance in temp on my HLT.
(I had accidentaly pulled the probe wire half out of the thermowell......... I wouldn't have identified it if I didn't have the guage!
It all is possible without them but I don't regret having mine...... It's a personal thing ....... As Screwy says Grain bed temp is not what is measure it is the Wort exiting Herms!

If you are doing mainly 50 litre Batches your Mash Tun I feel is too small at 50 litres!
If you go up to 70 23 litre batches are achievable but you will have a lot of Headspace in the TUN.
Like everything in life there are compromises to everything .... First step is to decide what is most important to you ! Big batches or to experiment with singles effectively.
I am pretty new to all this and only give this advice through my experiences and happy to be corrected by more experienced Brewers.
What you are proposing is a big spend and very important you get what you wan't and most of achieve all your objectives.
Which is important that you get good constructive feedback from a range of Brewers!
We all want a big rig that can brew big arse amounts of beer but that comes at the expense of brewing smaller batches often to hone your skills on singles which will still give you the ability to do comfortable doubles on most beer styles.
I see the Mash Tun as the most important piece of kit in the whole Brewery.... First step is to decide on 50 or 70 litres.
This is my interpretation on what I have learned so far .... Interested in others feedback.

Chers mate


Woody

 

[Crusty]

There are so many variables from grain to brain that can impact the quality of your beer. I am just speaking from mild experience in that putting 850 temp sensors on system is not going to make your beer taste better.

Sera,

I am certainly no expert at AG brewing as I have only been at it for a bit over a year. I have a simple system, 40 gallon cooler, 50 litre keggle & I batch sparge & always miss my mashout temps by a few degrees. Hitting temp targets will in fact result in a better beer. Mashing too low temp or missing mashout temps affects body & overall quality of what you are trying to brew. Because I want to move away from my digital dipstick thermometer, which I always scald myself with steam, I am really looking forward to monitoring temps in & out of the mashtun, herms coil & HLT without placing my hands anywhere near there. Out of curiosity, how do you do your brew. Judging by your response to my questions I assume you don't run a Herms system. I believe brewers out there can make award winning beers with the simplest of setups & wish them all the best, but for me, a fully automated, temperature controlled Herms brew rig is the pinnacle of home brewing. If I believe I require a lot of monitoring & end up brewing a beer as close to style as possible & having maximum temperature control over the whole process, I can rest assured I will be drinking a beer far better than what I have been brewing in the past.

Crusty

 

[Tony]

If you are doing mainly 50 litre Batches your Mash Tun I feel is too small at 50 litres!

I have made 54 liter batches in a 50 liter MT for years and i usually only 2/3 fill it with 3 liters/kg. It fits easy

I would use on/off on the HLT..... who cares about overshoot on it if you have a dedicated HERMS vessel.
I would only monitor the mash outlet and HERMS return to the mash.....the mash bed is not a reliable thing to measure.... it can be different depending on where the probe is.
PID on the HERMS vessel wont hurt...... this would be the HERMS return controler i guess.
not a fan of dials but one would do good enough on the chiller outlet..... its not really a critical temp to control.


cheers

 

[Crusty]

Hey Woody,

I am going to keep my original setup for 23 litre batches for the purpose of beers I haven't made before. If I like the beer, I will then look at doing the 50 litre batch with the new rig. I am fairly certain I will be ordering the 70 litre MashTun, 98 litre kettle & 98 litre HLT. I am still considering the TelTru gauges on the MashTun & HLT. Will also look at the extra socket ( thermowell ) on the Mashtun.

Tony,

Have taken your advice also & have pretty much decided on basic on/off for HLT ( Tempmate )
TempMate to monitor mash outlet
PID for Herms coil outlet returning to MashTun
Dial gauge on the plate chiller If I don't end up using my immersion chiller

Thanks for the input guys,

Crusty

 

[komodo]

I have experimented with (not yet in use for brewing still playing with my setup) 2 PID controllers and 3 x on/off temp controllers I bought off ebay. I'm planning on using a PID for HLT (way more than over kill) a PID for HERMS with the sensor in the return. One of the On/off controllers as a temp monitor and "safety" on the HERMS heat ex (looking at the possibility of using oil rather than water in the heat ex so I need to make sure it doesnt get too hot). One of the On/off controllers as a monitor of the grain temp and an alarm for if the temp is getting too warm from the HERMS process. The final one I'm looking at using in my cooling system. Not sure how yet though

I've used all my controllers in experimentation and whilst I feel that there are some easier to use controllers out there I feel that these are easy enough now I understand the broken english instructions and for under $200 for 2 x pids, 2 x 40amp SSRs and 3 x 10amp on off controllers with all matching fascias I'm pretty happy with what I've ended up with.

Let it be known though that I think I have WAY too much monitoring and control - and every controller is another controller that can f**k up. Analogue dial gauges may not turn things on and off - but they are less likely to bugger your brew day due to a failed relay or sensor. And thats before the mother of all f**k ups is added to the equation - the dick head brewer - ie ME!

 

[Back Yard Brewer]

Hi all,

After some discussions with more knowledgeable herms brewers than myself, I would like some opinions on temp control & monitoring for my new hems rig. At this stage, I am looking at either 70lt HLT, 50lt MashTun & 98lt kettle or 98lt HLT, 70lt MashTun & 98lt kettle. I will be mainly doing 50lt batches & occasionally 23lt batches if trying out a new recipe. I will probably not install any gauges on the vessels at all & rely on digital control. Please advise if you would do differently.

HLT, 3600watt element, PID controller
Mashtun, Tempmate to monitor grain or mash temp, Tempmate to monitor liquid exiting the MashTun & Tempmate to monitor liquid going back to the MashTun after the herms coil.
Herms vessel, 3600watt element, PID controller
Tempmate to monitor plate chiller temp as well.

So, thats 2 x PID controllers, 4 x Tempmate controllers, no dial gauges on any vessels.
I am thinking about not using dial gauges because quite a number of brewers out there have stressed their unreliability & mention that they are often in the way.

Crusty

Currently have the following set-up
98ltr HLT with a 3.6kw element via a relay and controlled by a tempmate
70ltr MT which I have maxed out only once. That was when I made a highgravity beer at 8.5% ABV with a 70ltr boil
98 ltr kettle with a kick arse mongolian burner.

I use three tempmates
HLT
Herms Water and for measuring the temp on the wort ex herms.
I am in the prelim stages of making a new herms that will be 9mtrs of rolled copper which will be immersed into around 15ltrs of water. Heating will be with a 2.4kw element. When it comes to chilling anyone of the three installed tempmates can be utilised for temp check. BTW my herms will also act as a back up chiller for those hot days where ambient water temp is quite high. Run the hot wort through my chiller and then through my herms which will be filled with ice and water.




The coil is going to be installed into a corny keg.I will be bronzing a bit more copper so that both inlet and outlet will be side by side. Will also aid in easier fitting inside the corny.

Cheers
BYB

edit: If I can talk Woody into buying a smaller kettle than mine we can do a bit of a swap occasionally. Would be helpfull to sometimes brew a smaller batch which is is a little risky when trying it in a large kettle such as a 98ltr. Don't want to run the risk of caramelizing my wort. h34r:

 

[domonsura]

It also has to be said that the one and only Brewboy that had digital controllers was a custom job, not standard. It also had wireless switching. Total overkill at the customer's request, it was stated at the time and I say it again. Completely un-necessary - it looks nice yes....but more of a pain in the ass than it's worth IMHO. Temp controllers are prone to having issues eventually, so represent a problem waiting to happen in the middle of a brewday as far as I am concerned. For the record, at this point I make no breweries as standard with all digital displays. As far as I am concerned, the money is better spent elsewhere on the brewery....perhaps on a bigger kettle so you can make more... The brewboy does have temp monitoring at every practical point yes, because I believe that you can never know too much about what's going on with your brew - but they are dial therms, because that's all they need to be and it makes for a much more organic brewing experience with no risk of the whole show stopping if the power goes out... one conclusion I did come to after some research though, is that in terms of comparitive cost - if you're going to go with all digital - they may as well be controllers, as all of the solutions I could find for reliable digital thermometers that could be mounted in a box, weren't battery powered, and had easily readable digits from a distance were either more expensive than controllers or involved compromises in quality of either the unit itself, the sensor or it's lead, or both......all obstacles that the controllers solved.

best of luck with whichever road you take Crusty

 

[seravitae]

I am certainly no expert at AG brewing as I have only been at it for a bit over a year. I have a simple system, 40 gallon cooler, 50 litre keggle & I batch sparge & always miss my mashout temps by a few degrees. Hitting temp targets will in fact result in a better beer. Mashing too low temp or missing mashout temps affects body & overall quality of what you are trying to brew. Because I want to move away from my digital dipstick thermometer, which I always scald myself with steam, I am really looking forward to monitoring temps in & out of the mashtun, herms coil & HLT without placing my hands anywhere near there. Out of curiosity, how do you do your brew. Judging by your response to my questions I assume you don't run a Herms system. I believe brewers out there can make award winning beers with the simplest of setups & wish them all the best, but for me, a fully automated, temperature controlled Herms brew rig is the pinnacle of home brewing. If I believe I require a lot of monitoring & end up brewing a beer as close to style as possible & having maximum temperature control over the whole process, I can rest assured I will be drinking a beer far better than what I have been brewing in the past.

Yes, temps affect stuff. Yes, PID is good - i agree with you fully on that. but having 3 or even four temp controllers on one mash tun just seems way overkill to me and it is becoming apparent through other comments that this is generally the case. You appear to be a person who thinks things through carefully, and critically, so I hope you will consider during your thoughts that sometimes thinking (or monitoring) things too much can provide no benefit (or even disadvantage) you. I hope i'm communicating myself right. Go for the PID system, but just start off simple. Get more if you think you need them, but I guarantee you if you start adding multiple pid/controllers to your mash tun you're probably going to wonder what the reason for doing so was and distract you away from the actual fun of brewing.

Out of curiousity, I don't brew. I haven't put down a batch of beer in over 10 years. To that end I don't run a HERMS, or any other style of system for that matter However I consider myself knowledgable in the process as I am much more interested in beer/fermentation processes and equipment than I am of actually consuming the end product, and other members of the forum will vouch for my interest and experience on the topic.

Also herms is not the pinnacle of home brewing. This is what I mean about false advertising about bling and gear. The pinnacle of home brewing is enjoying your hobby healthily, having lots of laughs and good times with friends, and decent-to-good beer. HERMS does not exclusively bring you any of those (and before you say it, herms doesnt guarantee better beer in that list, as there are people with state of the art HERMS systems that brew crap beer, too).

Again seeing as i dont brew in any particular style i consider myself neutral on the debate as to BIAB/RIMS/HERMS/single infusion/whatever other techniques there are.

g'luck either way with your project

 

[woodmac66]

Hey Woody,

I am going to keep my original setup for 23 litre batches for the purpose of beers I haven't made before. If I like the beer, I will then look at doing the 50 litre batch with the new rig. I am fairly certain I will be ordering the 70 litre MashTun, 98 litre kettle & 98 litre HLT. I am still considering the TelTru gauges on the MashTun & HLT. Will also look at the extra socket ( thermowell ) on the Mashtun.

Tony,

Have taken your advice also & have pretty much decided on basic on/off for HLT ( Tempmate )
TempMate to monitor mash outlet
PID for Herms coil outlet returning to MashTun
Dial gauge on the plate chiller If I don't end up using my immersion chiller

Thanks for the input guys,

Crusty

Maaaate!!!! :icon_vomit:
When you get that New Bling you won't want to go back to the old kit.
You will be like a kid in a lolly shop!!!!
Tony is correct you can manage fine with the 50 Tun a long as you have a Herms which is what you are planning otherwise water additions for Temp will catch you out!
But I was putting it in the context 98-50-98
But as Back Yard Brewer points out the 98 Litre Kettle with a 50 Litre Tun you will have issues with the boil on a single in the kettle and Higher evaporaration due to increasd surface area!

In my mind I would decide on 70 Litre HLT , 50 Litre Mash Tun, 70 Litre Kettle or go the bigger batch option of 98-70-98 and commit to big batch brewing!
the Good part is mate you are getting closer in deciding what you wan't!
:icon_offtopic:
Had the pleasure of having a look at Back Yard Brewer setup and tasting his fine beer the other night !!!

Bloody nice rig!
Both BYB and KHB and Wayne at Beerbelly have been great in helping me with my setup!!!!
Bloody great place the Barossa Great Food, Great Wine , Great Beer and Great People !!!!
I don't know if you have anyone near you that has a setup close to what you want but KHB was great to me inviting me to a few of his Brew Days to get a feel for how it all runs... and the size of his rig to give me a good idea on wha I wanted I Would recomend it if possible!!


Woody

 

[Crusty]

Thanks Sera,
It's great to get a few different views from a lot of different brewers out there. I have been doing things very simply for the past year or so & enjoy the hobby immensly. In fact I enjoy it so much I am prepared to go all out & upgrade my current system. I know equipment doesn't necessarily mean you will make good beer, but I feel if I have a bit more control over the system than I currently have, I should be able to produce a better beer than I make now in relation to hitting temps more accurately. A couple of degrees not enough or too much can really impact the final result, & I am trying to get a better understanding of the whole brewing process. I will probably back off on digitals & go with only what I believe to be necessary.
Great to get some different opinions from everybody.

Crusty

 

[seravitae]

np crusty, as long as you are happy with your system it's all good. its somewhat like a wife.. get something that suits you/has the features you desire, makes you happy. bearing in mind even a state-of-the-art system will nag you! *hides from swmbo*




p.s mandatory to post some pics of your proud setup once you get there!

 

[newguy]

I have a 64l mash tun, 64l HLT and a 64l kettle. My HE is a small pot that holds my copper coil and 6l of water. I brew double (~42l finished wort volume) batches on it. In my experience, a 64l mash tun is large enough for most batches but is small if you're trying to brew 40l of 1.100 OG wort. It's fine for anything up to ~1.080-90ish OGs.

As far as controllers go, PID isn't necessary for the HLT. Thermostatic (on/off) control is all you need there. You should probably go with a PID for the mash tun/HE loop as a simple on/off there didn't work for me when I was testing systems. In my opinion you don't need any more computerised equipment than that.

 

[Back Yard Brewer]

Thanks Sera,
It's great to get a few different views from a lot of different brewers out there. I have been doing things very simply for the past year or so & enjoy the hobby immensly. In fact I enjoy it so much I am prepared to go all out & upgrade my current system. I know equipment doesn't necessarily mean you will make good beer, but I feel if I have a bit more control over the system than I currently have, I should be able to produce a better beer than I make now in relation to hitting temps more accurately. A couple of degrees not enough or too much can really impact the final result, & I am trying to get a better understanding of the whole brewing process. I will probably back off on digitals & go with only what I believe to be necessary.
Great to get some different opinions from everybody.

Crusty

This is my first system, needless to say it is now sitting in my "museum"


I can understand about trying to have more control and streamlining. I brewed with that one but after 3 brews and some poor advice I almost gave AG away I thought f**k it, if I can't do it better and my why.......... Curently I am on my 3rd AG system, the 2nd was a keggle set-up which was great and my current would not be where it is if not for Beerbelly

Cheers
BYB

 

[Crusty]

Thanks guys for your input,

I think I have finally decided what to do after talking to some more people.
I am going to keep my old single infusion batch sparge manual system to try out new recipes, 23lt batch & if I'm likin the recipe, it will be a double batch brew on the new rig, from Beerbelly of course. This is whats going down,

98lt HLT, TelTru dial gauge thermometer, sight gauge, 3600watt element, TempMate on/off temp control
70lt MashTun, TelTru dial gauge thermometer
98lt kettle, hopscreen & whirlpool inlet
10lt herms vessel, 2400watt element, as much copper coil as I can fit in there, temp monitoring wort as it leaves the herms & re-enters the MashTun, either PID or TempMate.
Thats a bit simpler.

Thanks a million to BYB for giving me a call & taking the time to explain his system to me.

Thanks all,

Crusty