Herms/rims Systems $$$$

[gibbocore]

Is it at all possible for people to put a price on what they have spent all up on their herms or rims systems? I take it that a good deal of the parts are picked up/freebies. But i'm sure some welding know how and hardware equipment would have been purchased at some point.

I'd like to start upgrading my equipment and output. Would just like to know what to expect in the $$$ department.

 

[Doogiechap]

Is it at all possible for people to put a price on what they have spent all up on their herms or rims systems? I take it that a good deal of the parts are picked up/freebies. But i'm sure some welding know how and hardware equipment would have been purchased at some point.

I'd like to start upgrading my equipment and output. Would just like to know what to expect in the $$ department.

Gibbocore, you are dead right when it comes to picked up/ freebie parts making a huge difference to cost. The other variable is what sort of build quality versatility you are chasing. Thirsty Boy built a HERMS setup for two parts of bugger all and on all accounts works a treat, for me my setup's largest cost contributor was the additional hose fittings 4 x $15 female and 4 x $10 male, to insert the heat exchanger neatly into the pumping circuit and the Mashmaster Temp Controller $90. Copper coil roughly $30, ali pot, ex dishwasher heating element and mate who brazed the fittings onto the coil free (priceless). All of the fittings through my pot are weldless.

My advice is to start creating the shopping list for what you would like to have ideally, then start looking at ways you can be creative in adapting alternative products for the job (if you have the time). For me, that is as much fun as brewing .
When creating the shopping list try to think into the future a bit too as you will want to improve your rig so whatever gear you buy/ aquire, try to 'futureproof' your equipment and get stuff that won't wear/ corrode/ leak/ tarnish your product too quickly

Have fun !
Cheers
Doug

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Well, initially it was for 3 parts of bugger all, and on a small scale it worked pretty well - but as it has evolved over time into a bigger and more versatile unit, I've probably spent $900 dollars on different bits and pieces over the years, but the core of what I currently have would be a lot cheaper to assemble. Its the trial and error that cost me, not so much the result.

To build my HERMS from scratch (assuming you have the basic 3 vessel set-up already) would cost

March pump - $250 from G&G
PID controller and jiffy box/parts to make it go - $80.00 ish off e-bay and DSE
A few meters of 1/2inch copper tube for your heat-ex coil and return manifold - You can get 6m of it for $48 from Bunnings at the moment and spare copper tube isn't going to hurt
10L handy pail for Heat-Ex vessel - $5 new from Bunnings or free scrounged from a deli or something
Element from a K'mart electric kettle - $10
A few meters of silicon hose - $18 ??? actually I use cheap bunnings vinyl hose cause I bought a whole coil of the stuff, It will be being replaced with silicon when it runs out because it is ****.
A couple of compression fittings for the end of your coil - $10ish
Some good Quick disconnects - <$50 for more than enough Aluminium camlocks from Dural Irrigation I am currently using cheap plastic garden hose fittings and they suck rectum. Good brass garden fittings would be fine, but are actually more expensive than the camlocks. So the camlocks are being ordered in the next couple of days.
A bigish bag of Rice Hulls - I use a good couple of hands full in every mash to make sure I don't get sticking. Nothing worse that starting your mash at acid rest temperatures planning on a four step mash - then it sticks in the first few minutes of re-circulating and your mash stays at 36C while you F around trying to make it go, and then sticks again at every other step on the way - three hour mashes are no damn fun at all.
An RCD - $25 from bunning. So you dont kill yourself

I dont know if you could do it a lot cheaper than that, unless you try to save on the expensive bits and re-cycle a washing machine pump or something instead of using the march. I spent quite a bit of time and effort trying to make things as cheaply as I could, and use things that would "do" rather than the things that would be the "best". All OK if you don't want to enjoy your brewing very much. But spending the first 45minutes of my brew cursing and swearing because a cheap QD insists on leaking, or the cheap pump I first bought is leaking like a sieve and wont prime, or the cheap hose keeps kinking when its hot....... it's not a lot of fun at all. It gets more expensive when you try to be cheap and then have to buy everything twice because you'd rather be actually brewing than swearing at your brew system.

This system works pretty well for me, (after the swearing is over) but I am a real stickler for mash temp control and the system has a bit of delay and inertia to it, so I am about to undertake a modification to RIMS rather than HERMS because I think that I will get faster and more accurate control of temperature and temperature changes. This will cost me a slab, because a friend is building the RIMS unit for me out of some stainless pipe, and the rest of the gear is to be scavenged from the HERMS. It will all be able to be put back if the RIMS is no better that what I currently have.

Hope that gives you a bit of a picture of what you are heading for. I sincerely hope that someone else is abl to tell you its a lot cheaper and easier than I have made it - then when I get the masochistic urge to re-build my system again, I'll do it their way instead of mine.

Cheers

TB

 

[gibbocore]

Thanks a brazillion for the replys!

I'm pretty excited about putting this together. The next choice is choosing herms or rims. Which i take it is another can of worms all together, but will probably come down to part availability.

I guess some of my main requirements are easy of cleaning and i like to have things looking nice

Oh and of course, like all brewers, building things and keeping them cheap!

 

[fraser_john]

I would say first design your system on paper. Do a LOT of research on the internet and this site, look at as many other systems as you can to get an idea on what components you might need. Develop a shopping list of essential items.

Find all the local scrap metal merchants and do a walk around their yard (if they let you), especially in the stainless steel scrap pile.

Do it piece meal if you cannot afford lump sum, start with the easiest, cheapest bits first, you might trip over some of the bigger bits on the way to accumulating these small components.

Look at your friends and determine what help they may be, are they plumbers, electricians etc? Same with friends of friends, you can always promise a case of good beer in return for work done, even if its the simplest of work (e.g. a 15amp outlet or a bit of brazing).

There was a post about Atlas in Shepparton having about the best prices on stainless ball valves around, keep that in mind, they may have other stainless bits cheap as well!

It can cost bugger all to way too much!

I stupidly took my kettle somewhere and it cost $350 to cut it in half and weld an extra 8 inches into it, only to find out a few weeks later a friends brother in law works in a fabrication department of the local slaughter yard, everything they work with is stainless!!! He has now got things done for me for nicks, including the work on my mash stirrer.

Good luck!

 

[gibbocore]

This is all awesome stuff fellas and is most appreciated.

Is the descision for herms or Rims purley based on availability of parts?

 

[fraser_john]

This is all awesome stuff fellas and is most appreciated.

Is the descision for herms or Rims purley based on availability of parts?

I would say that it is personal choice! People profess the benefits/disadvantages of both!

 

[schooey]

Patience is a virtue and Ebay is your friend...

Research the info, decide what's best for you and then slowly acquire your stuff. Eventually bargains will pop up or you'll see or think of a better or cheaper way to do it. I been building mine for almost 12 months now... At this stage, Franko will be brewing beer on the red rocket brfore I get mine all together.

 

[Screwtop]

10L SS cooking pot from the kitchen $0
Element and cord from a $10 kettle that had been originally installed in my HLT 2 years prior $0
Left over car windshield insulation and camp mat $0
Duct Tape from the shed $0
3M x 1/2 in copper tube from the scrap yard $5.00
1/2" Copper compression fittings from Bunnings $17.80
2 x Click fit hose tail and nut from Bunnings, think they were $6.40
Project box from Dick Smith previously used in HLT $0
Mashmaster around $90
1/2" copper fittings for MLT return plumbing max $30

Obviously many of these items cost something originally and I had the pump already. To include the new cost of items and include the pump, all up around the $450.00 to do it from scratch.

But like so many brewery projects put together over time, not a big one off cost. Well worth it to my mind, improvements like this in the brewery save me lifting large volumes of hot water and wort and make brewday much easier. HERMS provides improved management of mash processes, and the Mashmaster enables easy management of brewery temperatures. I use the pump to recirc through a plate chiller and swap over to a Mashmaster probe mounted in the Kettle return manifold, so while chilling/whirlpooling the temp is monitored and once the temp reaches pitching temp the flow is diverted to the fermenter, this saves overall brewday time requirements as less total time is required for attending to the brew. Much of my brewday time is spent on AHB simply waiting for steps to complete. Total time including brew cleaning and pitching yeast is reduced. After wort is pumped to the fermenter yeast is pitched and the fermenter goes into the fermentation fridge and cleaning begins. The hot water from the HERMS heat exchanger is transferred to the HLT where a little caustic is added, this is then pumped around for cleaning. When I walk out of the brewery all is finished, prior I had to return time after time to check on cooling and to pitch the yeast etc. When it comes to time management in my book HERMS/RIMS is great and worth the $ investment for ease of brewery management and time savings.

 

[pbrosnan]

Some good Quick disconnects - <$50 for more than enough Aluminium camlocks from Dural Irrigation

Hi there TB,

What size did camlocks did you get? 15mm?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

In the process of ordering at the moment - I'm going with the 15mm ones. They will screw straight onto the March pump and into ball valves etc etc. I got an e-mail quote from http://www.irrigationwarehouse.com.au/category170_1.htm as well, they can supply 15mm even though they aren't listed on the site. Slightly cheaper prices but more expensive shipping for me. Probably a fair bit cheaper if you are a tradey.. but I'm not

 

[pbrosnan]

In the process of ordering at the moment - I'm going with the 15mm ones. They will screw straight onto the March pump and into ball valves etc etc. I got an e-mail quote from http://www.irrigationwarehouse.com.au/category170_1.htm as well, they can supply 15mm even though they aren't listed on the site. Slightly cheaper prices but more expensive shipping for me. Probably a fair bit cheaper if you are a tradey.. but I'm not

So you'd be getting the type "B" females and the type "F" males?

 

[gibbocore]

Ok, a few more questions guy's before i start posting up drawings and designs.

What's the largest batch size you can do (easily) with a CUB keg/kettle?

How much of a difference does an intricate sparge arm make and how elaborate should i attempt to be? Are there any standard designs out there at the moment, what should i be aiming for considering i'm a batch sparger. Also, am i going to expect higher efficiancy with the fly sprge?

Whats the best place to have my mashmaster temp probe? In the fly sparge arm? In the Mash tun? Or have mutliple and switch them acording to what action i am doing. Ie, if i'm in my mash cycle i'd imagine the mashmaster would be most efficiant if its readings were coming from the mash tun itself?

Sorry for all the questions, i just want to get this right so that future tweakings are exactly that, in the future.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

pbrosnan - I am getting some type A and type F fittings for the pump and ball valves etc, plus type C for the hoses. Having used a few of these fittings (admittedly in a much larger sizes) industrially, the females usually to go on the hoses, its easier to handle that way.

gibbocore - I just still batch sparge, so I cant help with fancy spinning sparge arm designs or stuff like that.

I have a 50L pot and with only a 60min boil and a bit of careful kettle watching, I can just about squeak 38L into a fermentor without mucking about with water additions during the boil.

My opinion is that the temp probe should go on the wort return, as close to where it re-enters the tun as possible. If you have the probe in the tun itself, then by the time the Mashtun is heated to the right temp, the HERMS vessel is way to hot and you will overshoot your temps. If the recirculating wort is at 67 going in the top, then eventually it will be 67 coming out the tap and so will everything in between (mostly) But that is because of the design of my HERMS. Its temp is controlled via the element being switched and heating up the 10L of water the coil sits in. If you have less volume in the exchanger, its less of an issue, if you have a system where the temp is controlled by routing the wort either through or around the heat exchanger rather than by switching the element ... then its completely different.

Its a pretty complex thing - lots of different ways to do it, all with their pros and cons.

TB

 

[gibbocore]

Cheers mate, there is a lot of food for thought. I'll have a go at drawing up some design schematics. If i can remember all the ittle symbols etc, its been a while.

 

[reVoxAHB]

My opinion is that the temp probe should go on the wort return, as close to where it re-enters the tun as possible.

Hey TB, most of my reading on herms suggests the same, and i agree with the logic.. just wondering, if I were to use a MashMate controller (which comes with something like a 6" probe) where and how does the probe mount to the return? Would I build something like a reservoir or grant to house the probe (and returning liquid) just before it enters the tun?

 

[Screwtop]

Hey TB, most of my reading on herms suggests the same, and i agree with the logic.. just wondering, if I were to use a MashMate controller (which comes with something like a 6" probe) where and how does the probe mount to the return? Would I build something like a reservoir or grant to house the probe (and returning liquid) just before it enters the tun?

This is how I do it reVox



Screwy

 

[gibbocore]

Hey Screwtop, thats some neat looking work there. Do you have any other pics of your entire brewery?

 

[reVoxAHB]

ah beaut, screwtop.

a pics worth a 1000 words

reVox

 

[kirem]

I have a HERMS system and if you do a search you will find pictures of my heat-exchanger.

I agree with screwys setup, as close to the exit point from your heat exchanger the better. You need to pick the place that the recirculating thin-part gets the hottest.

No point in measuring it anywhere else if you are denaturing your enzymes in another, hotter part of the recirculation system.