Help with hefeweissbier

[carniebrew]

I reckon that would explain my lack of success with wb-06, I was probably significantly over-pitching the dry yeast. On both my recent 3068 dunkelweizens I pitched (1.055 OG) at a rate of about 7.5 million cells per ml, but as I said, only the batch fermented at 17C came out right, the 23C batch was very different.

 

[verysupple]

I reckon that would explain my lack of success with wb-06, I was probably significantly over-pitching the dry yeast. On both my recent 3068 dunkelweizens I pitched (1.055 OG) at a rate of about 7.5 million cells per ml, but as I said, only the batch fermented at 17C came out right, the 23C batch was very different.

Yeah, we probably way over-pitch the WB-06 if we pitch an entire packet. I used it back in my kit and extract days and never had success with it for weissbiers but it made a pretty decent witbier once. I guess the over-pitch didn't hurt the wit as much 'cause you want a wit that bit drier and the slight tartness suited really well. I can't remember the kit or ferm temps but that kit wit had some decent spiciness going on too.

 

[carniebrew]

I did a couple of wb-06 batches around 19C, and as you say, they came out dry and tart. I then did a hefe with wb-06 at 23C, and it changed the profile significantly, smelled hugely like banana during fermentation, but lost it all after bottling. Was good to drink, but nothing at all like a commercial hefe.

 

[Nick JD]

Isn't WB06 at Wit Bier yeast? Or would that make too much sense?

If it were called HW06 and had any banana whatsoever, I'd believe it ... but to me, it makes phenoly hoegaarden type beers.

I reckon it's a dry version of 3333 if it's a German yeast, otherwise, I reckon 3944 is its closest liquid analog.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

WB = Wheat Banana.

Seriously, I got no banana with it and I was brewing in Qld spring. Lots of clove, but it lack a certain dimension. This is a type of beer where wet yeast is a must 3368 isn't bad, 3068 is the bombskies.

 

[carniebrew]

Isn't WB06 at Wit Bier yeast? Or would that make too much sense?

If it were called HW06 and had any banana whatsoever, I'd believe it ... but to me, it makes phenoly hoegaarden type beers.

I reckon it's a dry version of 3333 if it's a German yeast, otherwise, I reckon 3944 is its closest liquid analog.

I've seen plenty of conjecture over this, but nothing definitive. Fermentis say in their pdf "Specialty yeast selected for wheat beer fermentations. Produces subtle estery and phenol flavor notes typical of wheat beers. Allows to brew beer with a high drinkability profile and presents a very good ability to suspend during fermentation."

But on the web page for Fermentis yeast it says: "A speciality yeast selected for wheat beer fermentations. The yeast produces subtle estery and phenol flavour notes typical of wheat beers. The choice of Wheat or Weizen bier fans"

So it sounds like the manufacturer intends it to make Weizen style beers, particularly given all the mentions of banana and clove. And as for the name, wouldn't WB just stand for "Wheat Beer"?

 

[Nick JD]

Sounds like the manufacturer couldn't dry 3068.

 

[verysupple]

I gave this style another try while taking on board everyone's advice...and have more questions.

So, this is what I did:

Stovetop BIAB

60 % Bestmalz pale wheat malt
30 % bestmalz pils malt
10 % Bestmalz dark Munich malt
German Perle - 60 min - 11 IBU
Wyeast 3068

OG: 1.051
FG: 1.016 (was aiming for 1.013)

Mash:
CaSO4 and CaCl2 to give 50 ppm Ca
Lactic acid to get a mash pH of 5.2
45 C - 20 min
63 C - 20 min
70 C - 40 min
76 C - 10 min

Dunk sparge 76 C for 10 min

I got 81 % eff. into the kettle...so that's a big improvement on my first 2 attempts described in my OP. I think I just needed to mash longer for the single infusions.

70 min boil:
60 min - Perle hops
10 min - Wyeast nutrient

Chilled to 17 C in ~1 hr
Aerated by shaking the FV for ~1 min.

Now this is where my new questions start...
I was aiming to pitch 0.4 million cells / mL / P which for an OG of 1.051 is about 5 million / mL. I came to this pitch rate after researching quite thoroughly appropriate rates for weissbiers. Because I got way better efficiency, I pitched about 0.35 million cells / mL / P ...close enough.

I made a 600 mL starter which I calculated the size of based on the average of the viabilities calculated by Mr.Malty and Yeastcalc. The smack pack was just over 3 months old so I used a viability of 39 %...

I pitched at 17 C and let free rise to 20 C. Just like before, I got heaps of hydrogen sulphide during day 2 and by the end of day 3 fermentation was finished. I let it sit at 20 C for a couple of days and then conditioned at 7 C for 9 days.

I thought fermenting at a slightly higher temp would not stress the yeast as much and hopefully not give the sulphur, and also give me more esters. Well that didn't work. I've taken samples to taste every couple of days throughout fermentation and conditioning and it tastes the same as my first 2 attempts - no esters, some phenolics but not at all balanced and tastes kind of "dirty" (I really can't think of a better way to describe it). I won't know if the body is better till after it's carbed up.

Could the "dirtiness" I'm tasting be simply an unbalanced phenolic/ester profile? Or is it more likely to be because the yeast was old and just spewed out a bunch of crap? The starter smelled pretty bad, actually, so that wasn't a good sign I guess.

I've had a lengthy email conversation with someone from Wyeast and they can't see anything glaringly wrong with my processes, and the final recommendation was to just direct pitch a smack pack next time and see if that helps. I'm hesitant to do that though because it was underattenuated this time and if i direct pitch that'll be an even lower pitch rate. Thoughts on direct pitching? (I don't want to open another can of worms with that question *caugh* Ducatiby Stu *caugh* so let's please keep it related to this specific situation )

Cheers everyone and sorry for the lengthy post, I just really want to get to the bottom of this.

 

[Adr_0]

I've done two hefeweizens in the last couple of months. The first was a 57/64/73/77 mash with 3333 fermented at 22°C (fridge temperature) and a standard 1L starter into 32L of 1.048. Aeration to the wort was just in the drain into the fermenter and I would say it was fairly good but I didn't use a stone for aeration. According to Brewers Friend, my pitching rate was about 0.32. Very sulphury coming out of the primary, but a week in secondary knocked it all out. Not a super-strong banana but was definitely there and little clove. Reasonably dry, lovely bready/wheaty flavour but disappeared quickly.

Latest was very similar, instead a 43/58/62/71/76 mash (infusion! put me in a straight jacket...), again with 3333 but fermented at 19°C. Starter was 1.5L on the stir plate, volume was 50L and pitching rate was about 0.53. A very slight hint of sulphur, but 3 weeks after brewing it is ridiculous: spritzy, clovey, fruit and bready wheaty flavours, but still dry and dangerously drinkable.

Doing BIAB, as you have said you will struggle with step mashes. Can you at least do a protein rest? I was going to focus initially on figuring out why you don't that lovely wheat malt taste, and was going to ask if you did a mash out in your batch or complete conversion, and did you top up with DME at all. You may have initially gotten the extraction you needed, and it was also masked by some off flavours in the beer.

Can you describe the 'dirty' taste? Is it a minerally taste or a sulphur-based taste? How old is the beer?

 

[verysupple]

Thanks Adr_0, I did a direct fired step mash with no probs - ferulic acid rest, beta-amylase rest, alpha-amylase rest, then mash out. I skipped the protein rest because all the malts I used are highly modified. According to my calcs I got 89 % conversion efficiency and 91 % lautering efficiency - 81 % into kettle. I do a concentrated boil and then top up with water (no DME) in the fermentor.

I just took another sample to taste. The smell is actually more "dirty" than the flavour and is kind of minerally, maybe a hint of sulphur left. The taste is actually OK until right at the end when I get that minerally hint along with something kind of harsh at the back of my mouth.

 

[Adr_0]

I assume your gear is clean as a whistle and sanitised...

Water? Done a pH check or water analysis?

 

[verysupple]

Yup, sanitation must be OK because the ordinary bitter and APA that I did inbetween were fine.

I just use the average values from the latest water report. I measure mash pH using strips from the LHBS and hit 5.2 (room temp).

One other thing I didn't mention is that I've never had rediculous krausen - only ever a few cm even though the batches ferment out in like 3 days. Could all my problems just be from unhealthy yeast?

Anyway, I'm thinking that next time I'll keep everything as simple as possible to try to eliminate possible problems. I'll pretend I never learned a bunch of things and brew it like I would have when I first started AG (seeing as my extract weissbiers were actually OK).

No yeast starter
No water treatment
No yeast nutrients
No extra aeration - just stir to mix wort and top up water
No messing with ferment temp - just pitch at the desired temp and let the STC-1000 do the rest
However, I'll keep the step mash because I still had the problems with single infusion.

 

[Adr_0]

I usually agree with simplification, but don't totally throw everything out the window. Get to the root of the problem and identify where the gap is for getting the beer to how you want it. The crux of this is to absolutely understand the function of each change/addition and how/why it will get you to the beer you want; when you understand its purpose/role in the beer you are making, THEN do it and try and measure the results if you can. The fully modified (i.e. no protein enzymes left) malts you used would have zero purpose resting at protein temperatures, so good call there.

I haven't used pH strips but let's assume your mash was actually 5.2. How did you get there with the malt bill you have? I haven't seen an analysis from Melbourne, but I understand most areas are fairly soft. I got a hardness and alkalinity test kit and measured the point I draw my water from. Hardness was bang in the middle of the range on most of the sample literature for Brisbane, but alkalinity was a touch high. Of my 10kg of grain for a wheat, 350g is sour/acidulated malt and I chuck in just a bit of calcium sulphate to help it along a bit further to the 5.4 range.

So, what is your sulphate, alkalinity and hardness, and how are you adjusting your mash to get pH 5.2 (assuming it actually is)?

EDIT: Added additional rambling(s) to first paragraph.

 

[verysupple]

Oops, just realised I said pH 5.2 at room temp when I meant mash temp.

I use the EZ water spreadsheet.

Starting water (ppm):
Ca: 5
Mg: 2
Na: 8
Cl: 12
SO4: 3
HCO3: 12

12 L water (L:G) 2.667:1
2.7 kg Wheat malt
1.8 kg Pils malt

Additions:
1 g CaSO4
2 g CaCl2
1.5 mL 88% lactic acid

To give:
Ca: 69
Mg: 2
Na: 8
Cl: 92
SO4: 49

Calculated mash pH at room temp: 5.71
I measured it 15 min into the sacc rest to be ~ 5.2 at mash temp.

 

[Adr_0]

Can't comment on the strips - which brand are you using? - but I hear there is typically some systematic error. To be honest, I think you are probably fine with pH but don't ignore the big variability in alkalinity. Bris is meant to be 44-120 and 97 is the 95th percentile... sure enough, my three tests came up at 97.

Just checking... what was your water volume? You have 12L there but think that might have been a typo? 81% with 4.5kg is quite a hefty weizen... More below.

Anyway, on its own you're probably fine - though I would still look into your alkalinity - but if you combined it with a high sparge temp and/or highish water/mash ratio it could add up to astringency which some might consider minerally...

Otherwise, maybe hops (probably not) or sanitation... or over-sanitation? Didn't leave any bleach in there did you?

Have a quick look at these and see if anything jumps out.
http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

Any finally... give it a few more days?

 

[Adr_0]

Be positive. Why don't you go through that list and see which one jumps out?

I also think you should get one of these:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Aquarium-Marine-Reef-Red-Sea-Marine-Care-pH-Alkalinity-Test-Kit-/181187921544?pt=AU_Pet_Supplies&hash=item2a2fa44688&_uhb=1

or similar. The hardness and alkalinity in most test kits is in degrees (e.g. 4.5) which should not be confused with ppm. I only say you should test because of the big sweep of values in Melbourne - you have easily a 0.2pH swing depending on which end of the scale you're at, and considering carbonate is a buffer you will have to add proportionally more calcium if you are high in carbonate. The Colorphast strips systematically measure 0.3pH low (i.e. measured 5.2, actual is 5.5). But again, not sure which ones you are using.

And old yeast pack isn't the greatest, but unless you had an infection in the starter or it was too high a temp for the yeast it shouldn't be an issue. You still have to grow it up of course. Do you use a stir plate or a standard starter?

 

[verysupple]

Thanks for all the help Adr_0. I don't think water chem is actually my problem...but it can't hurt to simplify things a bit anyway.

I'm doing a little experiment at the moment. I made a simple 1.5 L extract batch (barley - didn't have any wheat DME on hand) and hopped to about 12 IBU. Nothing else, not even nutrient, just boiled up the DME and hops in plain tap water. I then shook it up to oxygenate and pitched 10 mL of loose yeast slurry (according to Mr.Malty that should be about 0.75 million cells / mL / P) from the batch I bottled right before the experiment. It's fermenting in the fridge with my bottles while they carb up at 24 C. It has a nice dense creamy krausen and it smells delicious! Nice and fruity with no sign of sulphur. So the yeasties seem healthy enough.

However, this experiment didn't really help me much. The only thing that jumps out at me is that it smells great when fermenting at 24 C....which everyone says is way too hot for 3068.

 

[Adr_0]

Yeah, I could totally be barking up the wrong tree but it's important to rule it out as an issue.

Have you identified the exact off-flavour yet? As it gone after a couple of days?

 

[verysupple]

I haven't tried the latest one since I bottled it on Sunday, but the first 2 (and this one seems the same so far) I think the off flavour was probably just the sulphur. They stopped smelling like rotten egg pretty quickly but I figure they taste probably stuck around a bit longer. The main problem was that there wasn't any esters or much in the way of phenolics giving that typical weissbier character and the sulphur was over powering the small amount that was there. By the time the sulphur went away, so did the good flavours.

I've just developed (in the last 10 min) a theory as to what's going on. Everyone says to ferment these at about 17 C, but how are they measuring the temp? A lot of people have their probes stuck to the side of the fermenter with some insulation over the top. Wyeast 3068 ferments like crazy though, so maybe even with the insulation the beer temp is actually a few degrees warmer. I have my probe in the beer. Maybe I just need to ferment warmer (like my experiment is).

 

[Adr_0]

There you go, think you've got it. Temperature is such a tough one for wheats.

I hear that's a bit of a sticking point with 3068 - that by the time the sulphur fades, so do the phenols. Or was it esters? I used it once years ago (8+...) but was more impressed with 3333 (that's just me though). I may try 3068 again at some point. Or as Nick said, try 1214.

I have about 25L of 3333 (beer fermented with...) that I've dropped out and replaced with 34/70 to do a bit of a 'shelf life' trial. I just have to know for myself. There is of course a risk that the 34/70 will chew phenols - or esters - and will change the flavour profile, but will it do it more or less than keeping the 3333 in there? Only one way to find out...