Help with hefeweissbier

[verysupple]

Hi all,
Bavarian wheat beer is one of my favourite styles. Back in my kit and extract days I brewed quite a few of them and they were OK but I really needed ferment temp control - some of the summer brews turned into banana bombs.

Now I'm doing AG and have a temp controlled fermenting fridge, I thought my hefeweissbiers would be even better. Wrong! I did 2 back-to-back brews of the same recipe and they are bland and boring. The mouthfeel is too thin. The flavour is bland with very little esters or phenolics and no beautiful bready/wheaty character. The aroma lacks any hint of clove or banana or wheat but has a hint of sulphur (although the sulphur reduces after a couple of weeks in the bottle). I need help! It's very drinkable, just not a proper hefeweissbier. I've read the style of the week thread here as well as everything else I could find on weizen.


The recipe was:

60% German wheat malt
40% German pils malt

BIAB single step mash at 67C for 60 min
Dunk sparge

Boiled for 60 min with a single 60 min Hallertau hop addition to 14 IBU

Wyeast 3068 fermented at 17C (I figured if that temp is good enough for Les The Weizguy and Jamil, then that's good enough for me )


I got crappy efficiency on both brews - about 61% on each (I usually get about 75 - 80%). I read lots of posts saying it's the wheat crush but as I get it crushed from the HBS I'm OK with crappy efficiency, as long as it's consistently and predictably crappy .

I pitched yeast starters as per Mr. Malty and during the 2nd and 3rd days of fermmentation I got huge amounts of hydrogen sulfide, but hit target FGs after about 3 days. About 2 points below target FG I started raising the temp to 19C. After 2 weeks in the FV I primed and bottled to ~2.8 vols.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I love this style and it's such a shame to drink a bland version of it.

EDIT: Also, the first one is cloudy as it should be and the second is clear as....like a krystal, even though it's not filtered :s

 

[treefiddy]

I thought these beers were made with unmalted wheat (or at least a considerable portion)?
Never made one though.

 

[verysupple]

Nah, witbier uses unmalted, weizen uses malted.

 

[nathan_madness]

Hey, what brew calculator do you use? I will send you my recipes if like.

 

[manticle]

Try a step mash and decoction.

If you want clove, incorporate a ferulic acid rest, head straight to low sacch at 62 and hold for ten, the bump to 68 for another 40 minutes. 72 for 10, mash out.

Ferment temp is good, recipe is good.

Some people suggest underpitching in weizens can help push clove and banana. I'm not a fan of underpitching deliberately but I do also often find the Mr malty estimates unrealistic. Just make a 1-2 L starter from a fresh smack pack, don't abuse it (temp wise and oxygen wise) and add the whole thing when it's active.

 

[Rowy]

I thought these beers were made with unmalted wheat (or at least a considerable portion)?
Never made one though.

No

 

[verysupple]

Hey, what brew calculator do you use? I will send you my recipes if like.

I just use a modified version of Ianh's spreadsheet. Your wheaties are great though, so whatever format you have them in I should be able to convert

 

[aaronpetersen]

I agree with Manticle. I just made what I think is my best hefeweizen to date using a step mash. I can't remember the rest times, but the temps were 53, 63, 72, 78. I didn't decoct, just applied direct heat to increase the temp. Grain bill was 50/49/1 wheat/pils/acidulated.
I probably slightly under pitched (unintentionally) and fermented at 17deg. I actually split the batch in two and aerated one half and not the other just after I pitched the yeast. The aerated half is balanced with noticeable clove and banana, whereas the non-aerated half has more banana but is still very good. I often get a bit of sulphur with that yeast, but it dissipates with time.

 

[verysupple]

I'm not a fan of underpitching deliberately but I do also often find the Mr malty estimates unrealistic. Just make a 1-2 L starter from a fresh smack pack, don't abuse it (temp wise and oxygen wise) and add the whole thing when it's active.

Yeah, I wondered about Mr.malty maybe being a bit too conservative. I have an ordinary bitter in the FV now and it has a massive yeast cake at the bottom - like a good 3 - 4 L of it from a 25 L batch. The smack pack was a few weeks old and it told me I needed a 1 L starter. It hit FG 3 days after pitching.....maybe I won't bother with a starter for such a low gravity brew next time, even if Mr.Malty says otherwise.

 

[nathan_madness]

I just use a modified version of Ianh's spreadsheet. Your wheaties are great though, so whatever format you have them in I should be able to convert

I sent you some in a message. Hope that you got them. Also "manticle" is correct about step mashing, as for fermentation temps you could go to 18deg for more banana.

 

[nathan_madness]

Yeah, I wondered about Mr.malty maybe being a bit too conservative. I have an ordinary bitter in the FV now and it has a massive yeast cake at the bottom - like a good 3 - 4 L of it from a 25 L batch. The smack pack was a few weeks old and it told me I needed a 1 L starter. It hit FG 3 days after pitching.....maybe I won't bother with a starter for such a low gravity brew next time, even if Mr.Malty says otherwise.

Try http://www.yeastcalc.com

 

[verysupple]

Try http://www.yeastcalc.com

I use that too sometimes. It uses the same equation as Mr.Malty (at least for the "intermitent shaking" option).

 

[carniebrew]

I'll vote for the 17C fermentation, I've done a lot of weizen brews now, and without a shadow of a doubt the 3068 done at 17C is the best. I had it at 17 for a week, then 19 for another 10 days. I didn't intend to leave it in the FV all that long, but it worked out that way as I got busy with other stuff.

It's come out virtually identical to a commercial Weihenstephan dunkel, which is exactly what I was after. It was an extract brew with Briess' CBW Bavarian Wheat LME, so I can't offer anything on the mash process....not sure how to tell how Briess mash their wheat extract either.

It was a 13l batch, I used half a pack of 3068 in a 1.5l starter, pitching at around 80% of optimal cell count.

 

[verysupple]

Thanks for the replies everyone. It sounds like step mashing/decocting might help, but I think there's something more fundamental going wrong than my mash schedule (FYI pH is fine so acid rest seems unnecessary). Unfortunately step mashes aren't so easy for me as I mash in a 19L BigW pot in my kitchen. Maybe I could do a decoction using my other BigW pot, but plenty of other people seem to have had success without a decoction. Anyone had success doing single infusion?

 

[verysupple]

On the 17C ferment temp thing, I'm convinced that's the go.

Anyone else get heaps of sulphur at that temp? If not, maybe my wort is lacking a particular nutrient the yeast need or something.

 

[manticle]

Ferulic acid rest pushes clove flavour. I'm not suggesting it to balance pH.

Decoction will help with bready flavours.

Do you not use nutrient?

 

[verysupple]

Ferulic acid rest pushes clove flavour. I'm not suggesting it to balance pH.

Decoction will help with bready flavours.

Do you not use nutrient?

Yeah, I use Wyeast nutrient. I'll try the ferulic acid rest once I sort some more important issues than lack of clove. Right now I think I should aim for proper mouthfeel/body and wheat flavour. Maybe I'll give a decoction a go next time.

 

[manticle]

Step mashing will help with that too.

 

[verysupple]

Step mashing will help with that too.

Yup, understood. I think though with my setup a single (maybe double) decoction might be easier. Raising mash temp evenly in my 19L pot on the stove without burning the grain bag is a b*tch.

 

[simplefisherman]

I haven't tried making a wheat without an acid rest, but after reading from a number of sources that it helps with the clove notes, it certainly seems to work in the ones I've made. May be a bit sacreligious, but I sneak about 200g of rolled oats ( in a 25l batch ) into the mash once it gets up to 65 deg (cook it first ) ,gives a lovely silky mouthfeel and nice lingering frothy head...mmm-good
Making me keen to put another down now.

Ed. I sub half of the Pils for munich malt as well, little bit of colour and nice maltiness.