Help with hefeweissbier

[manticle]

Yup, understood. I think though with my setup a single (maybe double) decoction might be easier. Raising mash temp evenly in my 19L pot on the stove without burning the grain bag is a b*tch.

Use a decoction to step mash.

 

[Nick JD]

3068 is a skitzo bitch. Try 1214 (yeah, it's not a hefe yeast, but it makes a wicked, foolproof banana/clove beer) and you'll get something that tastes so suspiciously like Schneider's Weisse, you'll wonder why you ever bothered with 3068.

On the same topic, 3522 makes a better Wit IMO than Hoegaarden's strain.

 

[pk.sax]

Tldr. I must be in the under pitching camp. Never made a starter. Decoction results brilliant. Single infusion no probs either. I like 3638 way better than 3068.
I also bottle/keg within a week of pitching. Your beer might simply be going stale in the fv In the extra week. This is Weiss specific advice. Drink young.

 

[TidalPete]

You need to step mash or decoction as mentioned above & incorporate an Acid Rest at 42. If you want banana then ferment at 20-21 & use a blow-off tube.
Nobody has mentioned that Wheat yeasts do best when under-pitched & that you don't need to aerate the wort.
I reckon you need to upgrade to 3-vessel AYEC verysupple. h34r:
Just my 2 cents.

 

[Droughtmaster]

rather the bannana taste, clove reminds me of a tooth ache ,remember reading somewhere ferment temp on the warmer side like 21-22 c gives ya nanna i mainly use the krystal wheat yeast so only get tinges of them flavours mostly just a hint with aromatics as ya get ya mouthfull

 

[NickB]

Yep, ferment 3068 at 20+ for big banana flavours. Add in an acid rest and ferment at 20+ and it'll be pretty nicely balanced IMHO!

 

[carniebrew]

I did two back to back 3068 dunkels, the first at 23 degrees, the second at 17C. The first one was too tart, and while it threw plenty of banana aromas during fermentation, had stuff all aroma or flavour after bottling. The 17C version was perfect in every regard. So I guess 23 is too far on the warm side.

 

[carniebrew]

I should mention that my 17C dunkel finished at 1018 (from a 1055 start), the highest FG I've bottled yet, but it gave it that thick/rich mouthfeel my previous weizens had been missing.

 

[pk.sax]

Might help mentioning carnie that you are doing extracts. Affects the fg I reckon. For me, weizens finish fairly down. 1006 and thereabouts. I like them dry.

 

[carniebrew]

I did, I even named the exact extract I used, back one page. But I've done half a dozen weizens with the same extract and had them come out as low as 1010. I used 350gm of spec grain in this 1018 gravity batch (13 litres remember), so that's probably got more to do with it. I was chasing a high FG.

 

[pk.sax]

Cheers man. Went back and read the rest.

From the mouth of a commercial brewer I respect, use munich2 instead of pils malt. 50/50 with wheat malt and 3068. I've tried it and it definitely works. I did notice though that his wheat improved massively with age in kegs. Mine with 3638 were right a week from pitching and kegged.

Re acid rest on stovetop, if you have 2 pots, why not use infusion to raise temps. Actually, I used to just use the kitchen kettle for that. 2l of boiling water causes a fair rise in temp.

 

[Screwtop]

Seems to be a little confusion re wheat beer styles in the posts above. Think the OP mentioned that he is wanting help with a Hefeweißbier the Southern or Bavarian style wheat beer.

Ferulic Acid rests and low FG's better suit production of the Northern Weizen style, dry and more clovey.


Screwy

 

[pk.sax]

Partially agree screwy. But have a read of this if it tickles your fancy. Pretty much what I feel about the beer too.

http://www.byo.com/stories/item/1574-weissbier

 

[manticle]

Seems to be a little confusion re wheat beer styles in the posts above. Think the OP mentioned that he is wanting help with a Hefeweißbier the Southern or Bavarian style wheat beer.

Ferulic Acid rests and low FG's better suit production of the Northern Weizen style, dry and more clovey.


Screwy

True but the OP also imtimated s/he wanted more clove.

 

[Thefatdoghead]

More clove....You need to rest in the 40's for 4 vinal guiacole (clove) to be active in your wheat beer fermentation. Dont know what you OG and FG are but if the beer taste thin just up the SG/OG and try a mash schedule like 47/15,65/40,72,20. Hard to do with BIAB I suppose.
Also keep your recipe and fermentation the same as what you have. 17 degrees is good for weinstafan.

 

[carniebrew]

Partially agree screwy. But have a read of this if it tickles your fancy. Pretty much what I feel about the beer too.

http://www.byo.com/stories/item/1574-weissbier

This seems to be a key point (from that linked article): "The compound most responsible for a hefeweizen’s signature flavor is a phenol."

I spent months chasing banana via high temps, until finally doing the 17C thing and nailing the flavour I was searching for. I still don't quite understand why it's considered 'clove', 'coz I've tried clove and it doesn't taste anything like a Weihenstephan weizen....but I'll take it.

 

[pk.sax]

Dude, you've misread the article. Weihenstephan Weiss is a banana/phenol balance with more emphasis on banana. Not my favourite. At the dunkel strength though, the banana sweetness prominence is nicely cut by the alcohol and is one of my favourite dark beers.

Compare this to a schofferhoffer, it's a banana bomb. Monkey drink!

Schneider's variant of the yeast (3638) actually promotes phenols over banana. The result is a more spritzy summer beer than the weihenstephan. Phenols are also a part of the aroma.

 

[pk.sax]

btw, there are many ways to skin the cat.

Slightly higher hop bitterness and drier FG can bring the same refreshing result as the phenolic bite does. Albeit, you'd have to use maltier grain, like Munich1/2. Then use a more neutral wheat beer yeast like the weihenstephan 3068. Or even, if I dare suggest, danstar Munich. Depends how estery you want it. Choose a suited temperature though.

The original recipe is an easier way though.

 

[carniebrew]

<snip> Weihenstephan Weiss is a banana/phenol balance with more emphasis on banana. Not my favourite. At the dunkel strength though, the banana sweetness prominence is nicely cut by the alcohol and is one of my favourite dark beers.

<snip>

I can't taste banana in Weihenstephan, but I don't think I'm all that good at identifying individual flavours within beers anyway. I guess if the banana is there, the fact the same overall flavour is brought out via a 17C fermentation of 3068 is interesting, given the insistence that esters are produced via higher ferment temps (and under pitching).

Anyway, it's been bloody good fun getting here, and now I've nailed it I'm moving on from hefeweiss beers over to Belgians....

 

[verysupple]

Thanks again for all the advice everyone. I've done a bit of research over the last few days and think I may have found the main (probably not only) cause of my problems - pitching rate.

On the Wyeast website I found:

High pitch rates can lead to:

• Very low ester production
• Very fast fermentations
• Thin or lacking body/mouthfeel
• Autolysis (Yeasty flavors due to lysing of cells)

The first 3 of these points describe my experience very well.

Also, I was clearly overpitching these batches. I was pitching ~0.75 million cells / °P / mL (~9.25 million / mL for average weissbier) instead of 0.35 - 0.55 million cells / °P / mL (4 - 7 million / mL for average weissbier). These recommended rates for weissbiers were obtained from the "Yeast" book (White and Zainasheff), pro brewer tips in BYO magazine (http://byo.com/grains/item/329-brewing-with-wheat-tips-from-the-pros) and email conversations with Wyeast (https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=12789.20;wap2) and are for high viability and vitality cultures (such as a lab culture or well prepared starter). I remember reading a thread by Carnie where he wanted to underpitch his weissbiers. It turns out he was totally on the right track.

So while I'll probably attempt some of the mash schedules discussed here some time in the future, I think the first step for me is to pitch a more suitable amount of yeast which should help a great deal in terms of ester and phenol production and mouthfeel. According to the Yeast book, it may also reduce the amount of sulphur produced as well.

PS Just to be clear, I never wanted to accentuate either the banana or clove, I wanted a balanced profile. The problem was I was getting no profile at all.