Help: AG AUS Lager. Do you need starter & Lagering

[ASYLUM_SPIRIT]

Hi guys

I don't have my recipe with me right now but I'm planning a all grain 20l aussie lager using pils malt and some dextrose and WLP Copenhagen Lager Yeast. Around 1050og

My questions are this, because aussie beers state there an ale but mostly use lager yeasts:

Do you need to make a starter?

Do you need to lager the beer?

Thanks

 

[YAPN]

My answers are...

No. But a starter does do a better job then just pitching. I would think that most people would just pitch the yeast on top.

No. But you need to decide what definition of the word 'lager' you are going to accept. And if you want to enter the beer into competitions. If you decide to lager then a fridge with temperature control is necessary.

 

[MHB]

I don't think many of the mainstream brewers claim to be an Ale (a few maybe but not many)
Lager is both a type of yeast and a brewing method. There are pretty major genetic differences between the two (think English sheep dog and Blue Healer - both will round up sheep, but you wont mistake one for the other). Also major brewing differences, ability to metabolise some sugars, brewing temperature, flavours produced....
If you want to make Lager, you need to use Lager yeast and use it properly. Modern Lager is very much a child of industrial revolution, it needs cool controlled brewing conditions, a controlled cooling from fermenting temperatures to a long cold storage.

Because of the relatively cold brewing conditions, you need roughly twice as much yeast to brew an equivalent Lager over an Ale. You can buy twice as much yeast, or grow your yeast population (make a starter), with a starter its important to do it properly and ideally to get it into the wort at the same temperature and while its actively fermenting (bit like a rolling start in a race). Most important is good temperature control.

Do you need to make a starter - No but its a really good idea.
Do you need to Lager the beer - Hell yes, the alternative is about as smart as filling a petrol car with diesel.
Mark

 

[ASYLUM_SPIRIT]

My answers are...

No. But a starter does do a better job then just pitching. I would think that most people would just pitch the yeast on top.

No. But you need to decide what definition of the word 'lager' you are going to accept. And if you want to enter the beer into competitions. If you decide to lager then a fridge with temperature control is necessary.

Thanks mate

No, no competitions here or at least ones that go by the proper guidelines.
LOL believe it or not I'm after a beer like the Cascade range or even the generic Aussie Macro Draughts. I have the means to to lager just not sure if I need to, when trying to make Aussie Macro Draught/lager

 

[ASYLUM_SPIRIT]

I don't think many of the mainstream brewers claim to be an Ale (a few maybe but not many)
Lager is both a type of yeast and a brewing method. There are pretty major genetic differences between the two (think English sheep dog and Blue Healer - both will round up sheep, but you wont mistake one for the other). Also major brewing differences, ability to metabolise some sugars, brewing temperature, flavours produced....
If you want to make Lager, you need to use Lager yeast and use it properly. Modern Lager is very much a child of industrial revolution, it needs cool controlled brewing conditions, a controlled cooling from fermenting temperatures to a long cold storage.

Because of the relatively cold brewing conditions, you need roughly twice as much yeast to brew an equivalent Lager over an Ale. You can buy twice as much yeast, or grow your yeast population (make a starter), with a starter its important to do it properly and ideally to get it into the wort at the same temperature and while its actively fermenting (bit like a rolling start in a race). Most important is good temperature control.

Do you need to make a starter - No but its a really good idea.
Do you need to Lager the beer - Hell yes, the alternative is about as smart as filling a petrol car with diesel.
Mark

Thanks for the reply, let me try and elaborate a bit.

I'm a Cascade Fan, yes there are lots of much better beers but as a Tasmanian I do like supporting them, and many of my friends prefer drinking that style.

I'm quite aware of the differences of lager and ale yeasts and made both in the past. I have the means to lager if required.

I chose the White Labs Copenhagen Yeast as I discovered that many Aussie Macro beers use a Danish lager strain.

Hard to believe but this time I'm chasing a Aussie Macro beer, like the Cascade/Boags Range, Crownies, VB etc.

My question is, if you were to make a clone of any Aussie macro lager/draught (ie not a true lager) would you make a starter and would you lager it?

Cheers

 

[Rocker1986]

Have done a couple of these in the past (XXXX Bitter ripoffs), mostly just to see if I could. But yes, a starter was used although not pitched while actively fermenting, and the beer was lagered, not for as long as the Euro style lagers I normally brew, but lagered nonetheless. Turned out pretty close to the real thing in the end, but probably a little more flavor in my version.

 

[MHB]

WTF makes you think "Aussie Macro" beers aren't true lagers. They are cold brewed with Lager yeast and then Lagered at close to -1oC for long enough to get the chill haze to settle.
Not commenting on the quality of the beer, just the process, I think its fair to say all the mass market beers are Lagers.

To get anywhere close, you need the right amount of yeast (lots) either from a previous batch, from buying plenty or by making more (i.e. a starter). Cant say you need a starter just enough yeast. There isn't a rule says you have to make a starter, but its the smart way to go! Which is exactly the same answer I gave you above.

Yes you need to Lager the beer, if you don't it isn't a LAGER. Again same answer as above.
Mark

 

[ASYLUM_SPIRIT]

Have done a couple of these in the past (XXXX Bitter ripoffs), mostly just to see if I could. But yes, a starter was used although not pitched while actively fermenting, and the beer was lagered, not for as long as the Euro style lagers I normally brew, but lagered nonetheless. Turned out pretty close to the real thing in the end, but probably a little more flavor in my version.

Cheers mate, thats the info I was after. Thanks!

 

[ASYLUM_SPIRIT]

WTF makes you think "Aussie Macro" beers aren't true lagers. They are cold brewed with Lager yeast and then Lagered at close to -1oC for long enough to get the chill haze to settle.
Not commenting on the quality of the beer, just the process, I think its fair to say all the mass market beers are Lagers.

To get anywhere close, you need the right amount of yeast (lots) either from a previous batch, from buying plenty or by making more (i.e. a starter). Cant say you need a starter just enough yeast. There isn't a rule says you have to make a starter, but its the smart way to go! Which is exactly the same answer I gave you above.

Yes you need to Lager the beer, if you don't it isn't a LAGER. Again same answer as above.
Mark

Settle down there mate no need to swear and get angry, your completely missing the point.

 

[Rocker1986]

No worries mate. As with any proper lager, a large pitch of yeast and cold storage period after fermentation at low temps are the way to go. By the way, don't mind the old Cascade lager myself occasionally. More enjoyable than a lot of other megaswill.