Hefe Weizen flavour

[Bellyup]

Hi All,
Ive just had a Paulaner Hefe Weizen and the flavour is the same as when something goes wrong with my lager making..... the blurb states "banana and cloves" with a somewhat bittersweet aftertaste
I didn't enjoy the beer as it reminds me of my stuff-ups
Can anyone recognise that flavour as a fault in lager ? I'd like to know what it is
Thanks guys,
Bruce

 

[tanked84]

What was your lager recipe?

 

[Bellyup]

Pretty bog ordinary -
Grainfather with 5kg Pils, 300g of carapils.
Magnum at 60 min
Saaz at 10 min.
Saflager yeast after oxygen
Usually this fault appears if there is a slow start with the yeast.

 

[krz]

Do you control your fermentation temperature?
If so, what temp?

Off flavour is likely to be "Isoamyl Acetate" ---> Off flavours in beer

 

[Bellyup]

Yep, temp control.
Pitch at around 18 then slowly take the temp down to 10-12 deg C in Inkbird controlled fridge.
Isoamyl Acetate could be it - the aroma/flavour can happen very quickly when it does - within a couple of days.

 

[MHB]

Well that's probably the problem, most off flavours from yeast are produced during the first little bit of the ferment.
You should be pitching Lager yeast at fermentation temperatures, make a starter or rehydrate your yeast and atemporise it (bring it down to the wort temperature) by putting it in the same fridge or adding small portions of cold wort.
Remember to that you need a lot more yeast when cold brewing, I would be using 2 packets at 10-12oC/23L to avoid yeast stress and off flavours
I seriously love the big Banana and Bubblegum flavours of some Hefei Wizens and work to get them, but ya not really good in a Lager!
Mark

 

[labels]

I make a lot of lagers and as ridiculous as it may sound, pitch at 25 - 30C. However, I do pitch big - always from a starter and an actively fermenting starter. A pack of lager yeast, assuming 100% viability is barely enough for 10L wort. After pitching I give it oxygen, a rest at the higher temp for an hour or two and then straight into the temp controlled freezer.

This method reduces lag time to zero and I get crisp, ester-free beer every time. Being doing it this way for years.

 

[gaijin]

MHB, I realise you're probably referring to lager brewing when referring to loading up the yeast when fermenting cold. To make it clear, I really think that hefeweizens are one of the beers you need to treat the yeast rough to get the best flavours. It's the only style I don't create a starter for as it usually results in a clean hefe without the banana and clove esters/phenols that I love. That means 1 pack of yeast for me for a 22L batch (not 2) and don't re-pitch unless you have a yeast laboratory to determine viable cell count.

Good luck with the troubleshooting - I hate that horrible sinking feeling when all of your work ends up in a disappointing drop. What does the fault taste like?

EDIT: I'm an idiot, I read it as brewing a hefe, but it's a lager.

 

[Bellyup]

Thanks fellas,
That sounds like my problem, appreciate your knowledge and help
Bruce

 

[Weizguy]

S-23 can be a bit fruity, too. Have you tried Saflager W-34/70 in your recipe? I read that it's OK at warmer temps (ref - Jamil/ BN podcast)

 

[SwagBiker]

I recently had a work trip to Germany. Also tried the Paulaner Hefe Weizen. When enjoying it with a local friend, however, he added banana juice! I've never even seen banana juice before, let alone added any type of fruit juice to a beer. I guess he was really chasing the banana flavour. The result was too sweet for me.

 

[Bellyup]

Blukkkkkk, sounds awful....banana juice ??

 

[keine_ahnung]

I recently had a work trip to Germany. Also tried the Paulaner Hefe Weizen. When enjoying it with a local friend, however, he added banana juice! I've never even seen banana juice before, let alone added any type of fruit juice to a beer. I guess he was really chasing the banana flavour. The result was too sweet for me.

A wise bavarian once told me, there's a sacred place in hell for people who do this with beer...

 

[MHB]

Sort of why I avoid Gloria Jeans or Starbucks coffee - any who makes coffee bad enough to event tempt people to add caramel... shouldn't be patronised.

 

[zoigl]

I say the same thing for meat pie and sausage, is it so bad that it needs sauce? Real pies and real sausages can stand alone, but alas are difficult to find.

 

[keine_ahnung]

I say the same thing for meat pie and sausage, is it so bad that it needs sauce? Real pies and real sausages can stand alone, but alas are difficult to find.

Boah....this is definitely a point that can be debated until the beer is warm and flat.
Not to steal the OP's thread :!

Btw....Zoigl is a cool name! I'm guessing you've spent some time in the Oberpfalz in north bavaria...?

 

[zoigl]

yes. we ride our bikes for 6 weeks every summer along a river somewhere in Germany. Bamberg seems to be a favourite location of ours. We have been lucky enough to see a zoigl being brewed in Windischechenbach?

 

[keine_ahnung]

yes. we ride our bikes for 6 weeks every summer along a river somewhere in Germany. Bamberg seems to be a favourite location of ours. We have been lucky enough to see a zoigl being brewed in Windischechenbach?

Servus!
Nah, haven't been there. How was it?

 

[zoigl]

The zoigl brewing process takes one back a few hundred years. I think that we were privileged to see how it is made and how it brings small communities together. A wonderful experience, far away from any tourists.

 

[Bellyup]

Well that's probably the problem, most off flavours from yeast are produced during the first little bit of the ferment.
You should be pitching Lager yeast at fermentation temperatures, make a starter or rehydrate your yeast and atemporise it (bring it down to the wort temperature) by putting it in the same fridge or adding small portions of cold wort.
Remember to that you need a lot more yeast when cold brewing, I would be using 2 packets at 10-12oC/23L to avoid yeast stress and off flavours
I seriously love the big Banana and Bubblegum flavours of some Hefei Wizens and work to get them, but ya not really good in a Lager!
Mark

Hi Mark,
FYI
I was reading an article by Randy Mosher and he was talking about Witbier and bubblegum flavours, thought it may interest you in your pursuit for Hefe Wiz flavours..............

"Pierre Celis once confided in me that his secret ingredient in Witbier was chamomile....
I have brewed Witbier with and without and can confirm that chamomile adds a soft Juicy Fruit gum aroma charicteristic of Celis's Witbiers"

Regards Bruce.