Head retention lacks a little

[Crusty]

Hi guys.
Just after your thoughts on improving my head retention in a Cream Ale. This recipe has Pilsner malt, Ale malt & Maize so not much in there for head retention. I do a 72deg GlycoProtein rest for 10mins to improve head retention but I'm finding the head disappears quite quickly even though the glass has ample lacing. I do a 52deg protein rest for 5mins so will probably knock that out & just go straight to my 90min Sacc rest temperature. I heat my water to 50deg as well before adding the crushed grain & I might back that off to a 40deg mash in instead. I could add a little wheat I guess but I've got this beer just where I want it & I don't want to alter the flavour at all.

 

[Markbeer]

i know its fake, not German purity but you could add a foam stabiliser.

Many of the big boys do it.

Sometimes when u want head there are easy ways about it if you arent traditional.

 

[yum beer]

leave it alone.

an old saying 'if it ain't broke don't fix it.

 

[Crusty]

i know its fake, not German purity but you could add a foam stabiliser.

Many of the big boys do it.

Sometimes when u want head there are easy ways about it if you arent traditional.

Not for me. I'm an absolute purist so will look for an alternative to the foam stabilizer. Thanks for the suggestion though.

leave it alone.

an old saying 'if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Well, it's not really broke so I hear what your saying but it needs an adjustment. The taste is great & I'm very happy with the beer apart from the head disappearing too quickly. If I can get better stability, it will earn a full time tap in the beer fridge. I have three schooners of this one every night & it's so easy to drink. It's low hopped & low bitterness & way too easy to drink.
Cheers

 

[Stuwort]

Crusty, I'm quite green in the all grain arena, but won't knocking out your 52c rest reduce your head. It is my understanding that increasing your 52c rest to 10 min will increase your head density, and even adding a 57c rest may help your cause.

 

[Cervantes]

Substitute carapils for some of the pilsner malt?

 

[manticle]

Crusty, I'm quite green in the all grain arena, but won't knocking out your 52c rest reduce your head. It is my understanding that increasing your 52c rest to 10 min will increase your head density, and even adding a 57c rest may help your cause.

Not sure I'm with you stu. A short mid 50s rest (5 -10 mins max) can help head retention but too long has a negative effect so I can't see an increase in time helping. I prefer 55 to 52 but not sure why 57 would be an improvement.
Crusty - presumably your glassware is clean and rinsed and presumably your other beers with the 52/72 regime have good formation and retention. If that's the case, it can only be lack of proteins from the grist - to my mind that means you need to address the ingredients. Depending on what, that might alter the flavour so it will be a compromise/tradeoff between flavour and appearance/mouthfeel.

 

[Blind Dog]

+1 to Manticle's post

Just a few additional thoughts:

Call me a heretic, but try pouring the beer and letting it rest for a minute or two. It takes a little time for the hydrophobic molecules (proteins being the main ones, hop bittering compounds another) to properly interact and bind.

Also, not sure why a foam stabiliser is a no go, it's just alginates extracted from seaweed, but if you don't like the idea, so be it.

I'm assuming you've tried just increasing the carbonation as it should help to delay head collapse?

 

[Midnight Brew]

5% ish wheat might help too. I also find leaving the beer for a few minutes helps with glass lacing.

 

[Mardoo]

Would subbing some 6-row for a percentage of the base malt have a positive effect on head?

Definitely a noob but I'm thinking more protein available might increase the positive effects of the 52 and 72 rests. Would that be the case?

 

[sponge]

Are you kegging or bottling?

I find the head on a lot of my beers improve after a couple of weeks in the keg when the CO2 bubbles have become a little smaller (compared to force carb), for lack of a better term. There's probably a better way to describe that, but it's Friday morning and I'm waiting for the coffee machine to heat up.

 

[manticle]

Turn it on.

 

[fraser_john]

+1 for Carapils or wheat, try 100g to start.

Also if your carbonation is right, could be your glassware either not clean enough or too polished for CO2 nucleation, I have some nice engraved mugs I had made up, but the damn glass is too smooth and it makes the beer look like shiite! I bought Headmaster schooner glasses at a warehouse here in Geelong for $1.50, talk about great lasting head and a constant stream of fine bubbles from the etched bottom of the glass!!!

 

[Goose]

The grain bill, mash schedule, degree of carbonation and even foam stabilizer will have an impact but I still reckon yeast plays a big part in the game too.

I have several times had poor retention on a batch of beer only to believe I had an issue with the grain bill or mash schedule only to find I had the exact same problem in the next batch when I re-used the yeast slurry despite making adjustments to the grain bill and mash schedule. I put it down to something going wrong with the yeast in the first batch as it was a slow starter.

I have also tried making two beers with pretty much the same grain bill, one was a pale ale the second a steam beer, essentially the difference was in the yeast, the ale yeast was US05 and the steam beer was lager yeast S189. There was a very noticeable difference in head characteristics in that the lager yeast threw held very little at all, but enough that I'd expect for a lager vs ale.

My 2c.

 

[HBHB]

If I'm not doing (as occasionally even when I am) a wheat/carapils addition then stepping 53-55 Deg for just 10 minutes, then sacch rest at whatever, followed by a rest at 72 Deg for 15-20 minutes before raising to mash-out. maybe lengthen your GP rest a little longer. Can't say I have any head foam stability issues.

 

[Crusty]

Not sure I'm with you stu. A short mid 50s rest (5 -10 mins max) can help head retention but too long has a negative effect so I can't see an increase in time helping. I prefer 55 to 52 but not sure why 57 would be an improvement.
Crusty - presumably your glassware is clean and rinsed and presumably your other beers with the 52/72 regime have good formation and retention. If that's the case, it can only be lack of proteins from the grist - to my mind that means you need to address the ingredients. Depending on what, that might alter the flavour so it will be a compromise/tradeoff between flavour and appearance/mouthfeel.

It's definitely a grist issue, I'm certain of that. Other beers with the same mash schedule don't suffer head stability / retention so an addition of a little wheat or carapils might be the trick. Glassware is fine & no problems with any other beers so it's not that.

+1 to Manticle's post

Just a few additional thoughts:

Call me a heretic, but try pouring the beer and letting it rest for a minute or two. It takes a little time for the hydrophobic molecules (proteins being the main ones, hop bittering compounds another) to properly interact and bind.

Also, not sure why a foam stabiliser is a no go, it's just alginates extracted from seaweed, but if you don't like the idea, so be it.

I'm assuming you've tried just increasing the carbonation as it should help to delay head collapse?

I could add a stabilizer but would rather tackle the problem rather than add a compound to fix it.

5% ish wheat might help too. I also find leaving the beer for a few minutes helps with glass lacing.

Might look at the wheat addition I think.

Are you kegging or bottling?

I find the head on a lot of my beers improve after a couple of weeks in the keg when the CO2 bubbles have become a little smaller (compared to force carb), for lack of a better term. There's probably a better way to describe that, but it's Friday morning and I'm waiting for the coffee machine to heat up.

I'm kegging. This beer has been in the keg for about 4 weeks & yes, the bubbles are nice & fine & carbed to 2.5 vol/co2.

+1 for Carapils or wheat, try 100g to start.

Also if your carbonation is right, could be your glassware either not clean enough or too polished for CO2 nucleation, I have some nice engraved mugs I had made up, but the damn glass is too smooth and it makes the beer look like shiite! I bought Headmaster schooner glasses at a warehouse here in Geelong for $1.50, talk about great lasting head and a constant stream of fine bubbles from the etched bottom of the glass!!!

Might just order me some of those HeadMaster glasses.

If I'm not doing (as occasionally even when I am) a wheat/carapils addition then stepping 53-55 Deg for just 10 minutes, then sacch rest at whatever, followed by a rest at 72 Deg for 15-20 minutes before raising to mash-out. maybe lengthen your GP rest a little longer. Can't say I have any head foam stability issues.

I might look at increasing the GP rest to 15-20mins next time round & see if that improves it.
Thanks all.

 

[Blind Dog]

If you don't want to try wheat flaked barley might do the trick. Never used it myself for those purposes, but know guys in the uk who swear by it

 

[verysupple]

It's definitely a grist issue, I'm certain of that. Other beers with the same mash schedule don't suffer head stability / retention so an addition of a little wheat or carapils might be the trick. Glassware is fine & no problems with any other beers so it's not that.

Do your other beers all use similar grists, in particular the base malt? I just ask because a mash schedule that works well for one malt may not necessarily be best for another. I went with manticle et al's 5 min 55 C, 10 min 72 C regime for my American ales and it worked well. I found it was counter productive for me English ales.

Carapils definitely made a difference too, but after a bit of trial and error with mash profies for certain base malts I found I don't really need it now.

 

[Crusty]

Do your other beers all use similar grists, in particular the base malt? I just ask because a mash schedule that works well for one malt may not necessarily be best for another. I went with manticle et al's 5 min 55 C, 10 min 72 C regime for my American ales and it worked well. I found it was counter productive for me English ales.

Carapils definitely made a difference too, but after a bit of trial and error with mash profies for certain base malts I found I don't really need it now.

Quite a few of my beers use the same base malt & this has equal amounts of Export Pilsner, approx 40% grist, Traditional Ale, 40% grist as well as a fair amount of flaked maize, 20%. I'll look at keeping the 52deg rest & maybe adjusting the GP rest to 15-20mins.

 

[S.E]

Sometimes when u want head there are easy ways about it if you arent traditional.

What exactly do you mean by that, are you hinting not prudish and don’t mind visiting unscrupulous ladies?