Head Formation Great, Head Retention Not So Great

[manticle]

I normally have no trouble with either head formation or head retention (except in a couple of very strangely half flat/half fluffy recent brews).

I have a porter recipe that seems to go down well with others and which myself and my lady both enjoy. A couple of bottles will be my first foray into competition land.

Tastes great and forms a very nice head. Unfortunately the head doesn't last and I'm not sure why. I'm wondering if a touch of carapils will fix it but it's not anything I've used before so I don't know. It sounds like maltodextrin for homebrewers. If there's something else in my mash schedule I can change to combat this I'd be happy as cara-pils seems like maybe a quick fix and with no problems elsewhere I'd like to work it out.

It's nothing like dirty/detergent smeared glassware by the way. All those avenues covered.

Recipe and mash schedule is as folllows (and looks like good head material to me):

Style: Robust Porter

Type: All grain

Size: 24 liters

Color: 52 HCU (~22 SRM)

Bitterness: 28 IBU

OG: 1.063

FG: 1.015

Alcohol: 6.1% v/v (4.8% w/w)


Grain: 6kg JW Ale
150g Dingemans biscuit
150g JW light crystal
75g JW chocolate
75g JW black patent
150g Roasted Barley


Mash: Single Infusion, batch sparge, 60 mins 70% efficiency 67 degrees
Boil: 60 minutes SG 1.040 32 liters

Hops: 20g Fuggles (4.75% AA, 45 min.)
30g Kent Goldings (5% AA, 45 min.)
Yeast: Wyeast 1099 Whitbread (have also used WY Irish ale)

Notes: Caramelise approx 6-8 L first runnings until thick syrup.
Primary: 7 days
Secondary 7 days
Cold condition @ 2 deg 5 days
Fine with gelatine
Primed to 2.4 vol.

The only possibility/variable I can think of is the caramelisation but I've caramelised worts before (to a lesser extent) with no issue. 6 L is an overestimate too - probably closer to 3-4. I've been reading a bit about head retention, dextrins and proteins etc but nothing jumps out as a solution.

Cheers for any suggestions.

 

[chappo1970]

I know this is goin to sound out there but the recipe looks just fine M.

Are you drink it under a ceiling fan or some other mechanical ventilation device?

I have found that ceiliing fans can knock a head down off a beer like no get out.

Or I lay off the wacky tobaccy :lol: :huh:

 

[manticle]

I wish I had a ceiling fan.

I've brewed this twice now - once for a case swap (a few bottles left over for me to make sure they were ok) and once for myself. Both times, in different houses, positions in my house, glasses, boxer shorts, times of day and reports from the swap all say a similar thing. Great off white/tan head, dissipates quickly. I've had some carbonation issues with some brews but when they work, they work. This one is carbonated fine, head is fine initially but just gets bored of hanging around and goes on leave. Everything else about it is perfect as far as my tastes and intention with what I was brewing go (can't say that yet about every brew).

 

[Adamt]

It wouldn't be a recipe issue, you shouldn't even have problem with head retention with just ale malt.

What is your sanitation regime? Could there be a chance of residue anywhere your beer has contacted?

Recipe looks delish!

 

[Fourstar]

I'd say dextrins are the way to go to keep the formation along with a slightly higher ibu count, say 35 ibu (more hop oils = foam emulsion).

Either carapils, wheat malt or flaked barley, whatever suits. Sub out the base malt for 5% of it and see how it goes. I never have foam issues and i use carapils religously in my beer.

read this article. http://www.byo.com/stories/techniques/arti...5-fabulous-foam

 

[manticle]

Adamt: It wouldn't be a recipe issue, you shouldn't even have problem with head retention with just ale malt.

What is your sanitation regime? Could there be a chance of residue anywhere your beer has contacted?

Recipe looks delish!

What kind of residue? Regime is the same for every brew and the others don't suffer this way so my assumption is not that.

My regime has altered slightly between the first and the second brew too but the result is similar.

Generally now I clean visible residue off everything with soft sponge, soak everything in sod. percarb overnight, rinse well, soak in bleach solution, rinse then rinse again with boiling water, dose with sod. met solution, drain, let stand, rinse well then dose with no rinse (saniclean) the immediately use.

Previously I used to clean with a soft sponge, then rinse then dose with sodium met. I recently switched to using saniclean but buggered up the dilution rates and got an immediate spate of infections - hence the current overkill nutso regime. I think both porters were brewed before current regime though (memory scratchy).

It's a bugger because the beer is super tasty but good head retention is a necessary part of this style as far as I'm concerned. Actually a necessary part of any style to me but especially English dark ales.

 

[Fourstar]

I think both porters were brewed before current regime though (memory scratchy).

It's a bugger because the beer is super tasty but good head retention is a necessary part of this style as far as I'm concerned. Actually a necessary part of any style to me but especially English dark ales.

Also the latest i tasted was delish but maybe a little overcarbed. Is it possible priming with table sugar thins the beer enough to cause foam issues? i owuldnt think so with alot of adjunct beers ive made with sucrose have been fine (although with 5-10% carapils).

I'd try and keep the carbonation restrained and up the dextrins slightly. As i noted when you came round, a little more body wouldn't hurt either by the grain bill or a reduced carbonation to help it seem fuller.

 

[manticle]

I'd say dextrins are the way to go to keep the formation along with a slightly higher ibu count, say 35 ibu (more hop oils = foam emulsion).

Either carapils, wheat malt or flaked barley, whatever suits. Sub out the base malt for 5% of it and see how it goes. I never have foam issues and i use carapils religously in my beer.

read this article. http://www.byo.com/stories/techniques/arti...5-fabulous-foam

Now I'm mildly confused.

Firstly, while I know hop oils contribute a lot to head, I've made beer before with similar IBU levels that are fine and higher hopping will change the flavour balance.

Secondly I thought you recently posted that both cara-pils and wheat will contribute to formation but not necessarily retention?

Cara-pils is probably the next step (showing a new brewer how to do AG on my half arsed set-up (actually only 1/3 arsed now) and brewing this one again but with CP) but it would be nice to know if there's a way my mash schedule could do the same thing.

As for Priming - it's dex, bulk primed. Do you think maybe I should try malt extract and drop it to 2 - 2.2? (supposedly 2.4 now).

 

[Fourstar]

Now I'm mildly confused.

Firstly, while I know hop oils contribute a lot to head, I've made beer before with similar IBU levels that are fine and higher hopping will change the flavour balance.

Secondly I thought you recently posted that both cara-pils and wheat will contribute to formation but not necessarily retention?

Cara-pils is probably the next step (showing a new brewer how to do AG on my half arsed set-up (actually only 1/3 arsed now) and brewing this one again but with CP) but it would be nice to know if there's a way my mash schedule could do the same thing.

yeah but its a balancing act, an increase in dextrins will help with formation and aid by increasing the viscosity = incrased retention. I dont believe wheat increases viscosity as much as carapils as its as fermentable as base malt. Also, if your beer is only 25-30 IBU it could go for more, especially as a robust porter. Sure it was balaned well when i had it but the bitterness you get with alot of these dark beers is malt based and very hard to destinguish malt/hop bittering.

Seriously, ive had 2 stouts of my own and the darker one (more roast malt) with a lower IBU count and 15 IBU difference. It was very hard to destinguish which one was higher bittered via hops. Even if its just a slight increase (w/in 5 IBU) it wont hurt your beer alot, it might even improve it.

either way, id go the carapils/flaked barley route first with a milder carbonation.

 

[Screwtop]

Sure it was balaned well when i had it but the bitterness you get with alot of these dark beers is malt based and very hard to destinguish malt/hop bittering.

:blink:

id go the carapils/flaked barley route first with a milder carbonation.

I'd go the route of proper brewing practice, head retention in that grist bill should not be an issue.

Been a lot of stuff recently re reducing first runnings, no way I would take all of the malty goodness from the first runnings and boil it down. Some of all of the runnings once in the kettle but before bittering, now that would be a different story.

Screwy

 

[manticle]

Been a lot of stuff recently re reducing first runnings, no way I would take all of the malty goodness from the first runnings and boil it down. Some of all of the runnings once in the kettle but before bittering, now that would be a different story.

Screwy

Not all by any means but this interests me and I'm wondering if it's the culprit. Can you elaborate?

Should I make sure both runnings and sparge are all together before caramelising and could this affect the retention? Sorry if I'm way off base.

 

[Screwtop]

Not all by any means but this interests me and I'm wondering if it's the culprit. Can you elaborate?

Should I make sure both runnings and sparge are all together before caramelising and could this affect the retention? Sorry if I'm way off base.

Basic, boil times of 60min or greater are required to improve head retention, improve hot break which contains fatty compounds. Personally, wouldn't want to be caramelising protien rich first runnings and return these lipids to the kettle bound in a caramelised liquid and not have them floc out as normally happens during a good long boil. Researching the effects these have on head retention would be a good idea.

Screwy

 

[Flash_DG]

The recipe that I brewed Manticle has a head that lasts all the way to the end of the glass.

4kg LDME
100g biscuit
100g light crystal
50g Chocolate
50g black patent
100g Roasted Barley


not sure if that helps

 

[manticle]

Basic, boil times of 60min or greater are required to improve head retention, improve hot break which contains fatty compounds. Personally, wouldn't want to be caramelising protien rich first runnings and return these lipids to the kettle bound in a caramelised liquid and not have them floc out as normally happens during a good long boil. Researching the effects these have on head retention would be a good idea.

Screwy

I thought that may have had something to do with it. It provides a really lovely flavour but I'll hunt up ways to do it without stuffing up the head and see if that makes the difference.

I'll search for information but it sounds as if you are saying gather all the wort (first runnings, sparge ect) and combine, remove some for caramelisation and add that to the fermenter rather than back to the kettle (which is what I've been doing).

You haven't let me down with suggestions yet so next brew I'll try exactly that (no cara-pils) and see how we go.

Cheers

 

[Screwtop]

it sounds as if you are saying gather all the wort (first runnings, sparge ect) and combine, remove some for caramelisation and add that to the fermenter rather than back to the kettle (which is what I've been doing).

No, gather all wort, mix and remove 2 litres prior to adding any hops, reduce to around 300ml (these amounts are for a double batch) and add back to the by now boiling wort in the kettle. Works fine here, no foam retention issues, nice subtle flavour profile.

Cheers,

Screwy

 

[manticle]

Ok.

Will give that a whirl next brew and see how she goes. Cheers.