Has mash ph been an improvement for you?

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Side by side taste my tap water then after the filter its so nice and soft and cleaner taste after the filter. For some reason (and a bonus for brewing I believe) after the filter its ~pH 5.8 to 6.2. I don't know why really but I'll take it.

The improvement in apparent flavour is likely to be as much from the removal of flavour active components* and residual chlorine than softness: the alkalinity in Melbourne water is very low.

It is normal to get a pH around 6 in RO / DI water, due to the lack of cations to buffer the CO2 pickup.



* Australian water has a high level of colloidal polyphenols, possibly due to the eucalyptus leaves and bark in the catchments. I used to do some design work for a company that made high perfromance water purification systems, the principal engineer was frum Serth Effrika, he was the first person that pointed this out to me.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

It's 100% lactic acid. Found the msds. I think that's the stuff, but wht would I know! I should probably go o line and buy some from a brew shop

100% of the acid present is lactic. The concentration, however, is 88% or less.

 

[wereprawn]

Some squeezed lemon will drop pH - you might not even need to drive to the shop.

When I started brewing, this was my "go to" method for better beer. Although that was around 30 years ago, and the instructions on the kits advised a kg of white sugar and ferment at silly high temps, you had to be pissed already to drink beer anyway, but it certainly did improve it.

 

[Garfield]

IMHO tartaric acid is a great choice for PH adjustment without adding any random flavours. For this reason I would avoid lactic acid as it can contribute flavours of butter, dairy, protein, fat, vanilla and more. Might suit a funky stout or something but probably not pales or pils

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Hmmm. If this is indeed true then we might as well not bother adjusting the ph if there's going to be another detriment to take it's place

Maybe I'll give the acid I have a try considering it will be such small amounts I don't expect any change in flavor. But I've been wrong before..

 

[manticle]

I have used lactic multiple times (also the acid in acidulated/acid malt and naturally occurring in barley malt. I have never experienced any of Garfield's described flavours and I think you may need excessive lactic to experience any of those.

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

It will be interesting to see how much, or little I need too. We have very soft water in Darwin and I've been adding around 4g chloride and 12g gypsum, not knowing what that's been doing to the mash (could be ok, could also be disastrous..) so the meter will be a good help

 

[malt junkie]

To answer the OP No, but yes I know what it is, that is to say I don't know what it is in my mash , mainly due to controversy around PH meters: their cost; accuracy; and longevity; virginity; fragility (almost like having a wife). The fact most experienced brewers I know quit using PH meters once they're dialed also has me thinking I'll have another expensive bit of kit that I rarely use.

someone just throw me $20BN or so these things would be so much simpler. I could have my own umpalumpa's mixing the mash continually.... my aspirations aren't big but they're mine.

 

[MHB]

IMHO tartaric acid is a great choice for PH adjustment without adding any random flavours. For this reason I would avoid lactic acid as it can contribute flavours of butter, dairy, protein, fat, vanilla and more. Might suit a funky stout or something but probably not pales or pils

I would think that Tartaric Acid would be a really bad choice, it is described as having a lingering sourness.
There is already lots of Lactic Acid in malt (90% of the acidity in pale malt) it fits better into the flavour profile of beer, Tartaric is used in wine and cider making but I have never seen it recommended (or even suggested by anyone who knows anything about brewing) for beer brewing.
The amount of lactic acid required to adjust pH is way under the "Lactic" flavour threshold so none of the off flavours you have listed will show - unless you use way too much or have a lactobacillus infection.
Mark

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Major problem with tartaric is that potassium hydrogen tartrate is sparingly soluble in water and less so in alcohol solutions. Commonly precipitates out of wines that are stored cold.

Factoid: Rochelle salt (a contact semiconductor used for crystal detectors) is potassium sodium tartrate.

 

[Garfield]

Fair call. Come to think of it I am passing of the advice from a wine maker.

As for residual sourness. Is lemon juice really a good choice?

 

[Sidney Harbour-Bridge]

I use phosphoric acid as i already have it as a no rinse sanitizer. I check the mash pH after 5 mins and adjust IF NECESSARY, I have only adjusted once and I think I only added 3 mls, usually it is OK. I have started adjusting my sparge water down to 4.5, this only takes 1 ml or less depending on the volume.

 

[mabrungard]

I wouldn't poo-poo acids like citric, tartaric, or lactic in brewing. They can all be used to add desirable flavor nuances to beer. But they can easily become excessive. With the popularity of those New England IPAs and their fruity nature, those acids could fit right in. The supporter's version of Bru'n Water does support those acids.

 

[captain crumpet]

I use phosphorus to lower pH. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but phosphorus is consumed by yeast during the growth stage, and is an important nutrient to have present in wort.

 

[MHB]

One of the reasons I have avoided Phosphoric is if you look at the mechanism by which Ca Salts lower the pH, through the formation of insoluble Calcium Phosphate.
I have always wondered if adding more phosphoric would lower the available calcium, haven't really had a detailed look and have always had Lactic on hand. might be that Ca only reacts with Phosphate rather than Phosphoric.
Would need to be a better chemist than me to know without a lot of digging - maybe maburngard or LC can tell me.
Mark

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

I have always wondered if adding more phosphoric would lower the available calcium, haven't really had a detailed look

Short answer is yes. Phosphoric acid is simply tri hydrogen orthophophate so it forms phosphate salts.

The relevant mechanism here is the solubility product (Ksp), I can run you through the chemistry but it will have to wait until tomorrow, it's after 2100 and I still have two tanks to clean..

 

[Sidney Harbour-Bridge]

Short answer is yes. Phosphoric acid is simply tri hydrogen orthophophate so it forms phosphate salts.

The relevant mechanism here is the solubility product (Ksp), I can run you through the chemistry but it will have to wait until tomorrow, it's after 2100 and I still have two tanks to clean..

Would that affect the taste of the beer? Oh and are you in the army now?

 

[MHB]

More to the point we pay money to buy Ca salts, and acid, strikes me as odd to buy two things that to some extent are going to eliminate each other. Not only a small waste of money, it's going to play hob with your Ca calculations.
Was thinking about some other organic acids mentioned above, Calcium Tartrate is not very soluble (<0.4g/L) Calcium Citrate more soluble (<1g/L) Calcium Phosphate ~20g/L for one form, a practically insoluble gem grade mineral for other forms (CaPhos makes for a family of weird possibilities)
The more I read up on water chemistry happier I am with using Lactic Acid.
I have mention using Calcium Lactate in brewing, if you want to help out LC have a look at the buffering capacity of CaLac/Lactic acid, that's about where I started looking for a refresher course on Ksp, been a while - mind you I had to differentiate an equation a while ago, last time I did much of that it was the late 1970's - use it or loose it, way too much is gone!
Mark

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Would that affect the taste of the beer? Oh and are you in the army now?

Wine tanks, duh.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Calcium Phosphate ~20g/L for one form, a practically insoluble gem grade mineral for other forms (CaPhos makes for a family of weird possibilities)

Also your teeth (calcium hydroxyapatite is a form of calcium phosphate)

The one that is revelant to brewing is calcium hydrogen orthophosphate, it has a Ksp of 1 x 10^-7.