Has mash ph been an improvement for you?

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Just bought a cheap meter online out of curiosity. I'm wondering: has correcting mash ph made a difference you can actually taste, a possible difference to fermentation, or no noticeable difference at all?

Also, when do I correct ph, after mash in?

 

[Jack of all biers]

Yes, yes and best/easiest correcting the pH down rather than up. Edit- After mash-in, but read below.

The best thing to-do is know your source water profile and predict the mash pH with brewers friend, Brun water or similar as they are fairly accurate. Then use you pH meter to test the result and correct if needed. If your source water profile is fairly accurate, I'd be surprised if you will need to correct though.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Yes. Although there is doubts in cheap pH meters being accurate.
Goal is (always has been for me) To get pH of mash correct without correcting. If you have to correct mash after mash in then you didnt get the mash right in the first place is my thinking anyway.
2% Acidulated malt in the grain bill gets me pH 5.2 to 5.4 everytime for long time now. The darker the beer with darker malts the less % of Acidulated. So a Stout for eg gets no Acidulated malt and hits the mark. Keeping it as simple as possible.
I may use tiny amounts of Phosphoric Acid (a few drops) to lower sparge water to between pH 5 to 6.

 

[droid]

I believe changing the pH alters the mouthfeel in some way - I lowered my sparge water pH on all fruity pale ales and the taste is more acidic and that acidity alters the mouthfeel - imho

 

[Danscraftbeer]

I believe changing the pH alters the mouthfeel in some way - I lowered my sparge water pH on all fruity pale ales and the taste is more acidic and that acidity alters the mouthfeel - imho

I think its an improvement IMO. Crisper. Its a bonus that my filtered water is rarely ever higher than pH 6. So a quick check and I just use straight filtered water no additions. Keeping to simple as possible routine.

 

[droid]

I think its an improvement IMO. Crisper. Its a bonus that my filtered water is rarely ever higher than pH 6. So a quick check and I just use straight filtered water no additions. Keeping to simple as possible routine.

^and so someone like me with a pH of 7.2 out of the tap would need to ad acid (or something else lowering pH?) to replicate your pales for eg

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

This would make sense to me. It's something I 'think' I've been missing in quest to make commercial quality beer. I've got a list of things to alter next brew, being:

1. Mash ph
2. Oxygenating
3. Hydrating yeast
4. Purging bottles of oxygen

This list alone sounds like it should make quite a difference(?)

I believe changing the pH alters the mouthfeel in some way - I lowered my sparge water pH on all fruity pale ales and the taste is more acidic and that acidity alters the mouthfeel - imho

 

[droid]

This would make sense to me. It's something I 'think' I've been missing in quest to make commercial quality beer. I've got a list of things to alter next brew, being:

1. Mash ph
2. Oxygenating
3. Hydrating yeast
4. Purging bottles of oxygen

This list alone sounds like it should make quite a difference(?)

oh shityeah

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

I don't have anything to adjust the ph down with, but think that our coffee machine descaler is the actual acid recommended(?) So that'd be handy

 

[Jack of all biers]

On my phone before, but here.

 

[manticle]

Yes (to original question - I know nothing about your descaler)

 

[Jack of all biers]

I don't have anything to adjust the ph down with, but think that our coffee machine descaler is the actual acid recommended(?) So that'd be handy

Ahhh..... just missed your post as I was posting my above. You think your descaler acid is the same. Umm.. Make sure you use food grade acid.

Also look here before you go do any adjustments.

EDIT - I'll expand in brief, as the Brun water site will set you straight. You can adjust the mash pH down with some calcium additions, such as Calcium chloride or Calcium sulphate. In short the calcium reacts with the natural phosphates in the grains and releases Hydrogen ions (which brings the pH down). for the longer version, do some reading starting with the link.

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

It's 100% lactic acid. Found the msds. I think that's the stuff, but wht would I know! I should probably go o line and buy some from a brew shop

 

[Jack of all biers]

It's 40-50% lactic acid. I think that's the stuff, but wht would I know!

Yeah, but what is the other 60-50%. Also food grade acid is cheap and I wouldn't be taking the risk. It might be fine, but don't say you weren't warned.

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Sorry mate, my bad. I've edited above. They say 100%, the other perventage is, fuq knows.. I'm not sure why that's in the sheet

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Here T'is

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Msds

 

[Jack of all biers]

It can't be 100% unless it's a solid acid, so if it's a liquid acid then there must be at least some water added. It's probably one of those statements, like 100% pure natural ingredients listed on many products these days. Looking at the MSDS you've posted it looks like 30-50% lactic. That's a fair range to swing from, so suggests to me that the quality control of precision is not, well, precise!

A lot of HBS sell lactic or phosphoric acid, which are the two most commonly used. If you want you can use citric, tartaric or malic acids and the first two are a supermarket trip away. Read about them in the linked site above and you'll understand why lactic and phosphoric are more commonly used. But they are legitimate options.

Look for the sake of $15 or so for 500ml of food grad acid from Brewman or KK or one of the AHB sponsors then, I'd be avoiding an acid mix that MAY be ok for consumption, but isn't made with the same quality standards of acids that are.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

^and so someone like me with a pH of 7.2 out of the tap would need to ad acid (or something else lowering pH?) to replicate your pales for eg

I would but it may be more about filtered water. My tap water is ~pH 7.2 as well Thats the Melbourne water average. Now I've got a Pure Water Sytems filter and never looked back. Not trying to advertise for them but Melbourne water is of the best tap water in the world and I know far more experienced brewers than me use it straight and make no alteration to Melb tap water including added minerals/salts etc.
Side by side taste my tap water then after the filter its so nice and soft and cleaner taste after the filter. For some reason (and a bonus for brewing I believe) after the filter its ~pH 5.8 to 6.2. I don't know why really but I'll take it.
Melbourne water does dose with chlorine periodically. It evaporates so quick to have a record able reading in the water profile. That's how I was lead to believe from unquotable sources. Thats why you can/do get a wif of chlorine in your tap water sometimes.
I'm also an unquotable worthy source of information etc.

 

[droid]

Some squeezed lemon will drop pH - you might not even need to drive to the shop.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Side by side taste my tap water then after the filter its so nice and soft and cleaner taste after the filter. For some reason (and a bonus for brewing I believe) after the filter its ~pH 5.8 to 6.2. I don't know why really but I'll take it.

The improvement in apparent flavour is likely to be as much from the removal of flavour active components* and residual chlorine than softness: the alkalinity in Melbourne water is very low.

It is normal to get a pH around 6 in RO / DI water, due to the lack of cations to buffer the CO2 pickup.



* Australian water has a high level of colloidal polyphenols, possibly due to the eucalyptus leaves and bark in the catchments. I used to do some design work for a company that made high perfromance water purification systems, the principal engineer was frum Serth Effrika, he was the first person that pointed this out to me.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

It's 100% lactic acid. Found the msds. I think that's the stuff, but wht would I know! I should probably go o line and buy some from a brew shop

100% of the acid present is lactic. The concentration, however, is 88% or less.

 

[wereprawn]

Some squeezed lemon will drop pH - you might not even need to drive to the shop.

When I started brewing, this was my "go to" method for better beer. Although that was around 30 years ago, and the instructions on the kits advised a kg of white sugar and ferment at silly high temps, you had to be pissed already to drink beer anyway, but it certainly did improve it.

 

[Garfield]

IMHO tartaric acid is a great choice for PH adjustment without adding any random flavours. For this reason I would avoid lactic acid as it can contribute flavours of butter, dairy, protein, fat, vanilla and more. Might suit a funky stout or something but probably not pales or pils

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

Hmmm. If this is indeed true then we might as well not bother adjusting the ph if there's going to be another detriment to take it's place

Maybe I'll give the acid I have a try considering it will be such small amounts I don't expect any change in flavor. But I've been wrong before..

 

[manticle]

I have used lactic multiple times (also the acid in acidulated/acid malt and naturally occurring in barley malt. I have never experienced any of Garfield's described flavours and I think you may need excessive lactic to experience any of those.

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

It will be interesting to see how much, or little I need too. We have very soft water in Darwin and I've been adding around 4g chloride and 12g gypsum, not knowing what that's been doing to the mash (could be ok, could also be disastrous..) so the meter will be a good help

 

[malt junkie]

To answer the OP No, but yes I know what it is, that is to say I don't know what it is in my mash , mainly due to controversy around PH meters: their cost; accuracy; and longevity; virginity; fragility (almost like having a wife). The fact most experienced brewers I know quit using PH meters once they're dialed also has me thinking I'll have another expensive bit of kit that I rarely use.

someone just throw me $20BN or so these things would be so much simpler. I could have my own umpalumpa's mixing the mash continually.... my aspirations aren't big but they're mine.

 

[MHB]

IMHO tartaric acid is a great choice for PH adjustment without adding any random flavours. For this reason I would avoid lactic acid as it can contribute flavours of butter, dairy, protein, fat, vanilla and more. Might suit a funky stout or something but probably not pales or pils

I would think that Tartaric Acid would be a really bad choice, it is described as having a lingering sourness.
There is already lots of Lactic Acid in malt (90% of the acidity in pale malt) it fits better into the flavour profile of beer, Tartaric is used in wine and cider making but I have never seen it recommended (or even suggested by anyone who knows anything about brewing) for beer brewing.
The amount of lactic acid required to adjust pH is way under the "Lactic" flavour threshold so none of the off flavours you have listed will show - unless you use way too much or have a lactobacillus infection.
Mark

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Major problem with tartaric is that potassium hydrogen tartrate is sparingly soluble in water and less so in alcohol solutions. Commonly precipitates out of wines that are stored cold.

Factoid: Rochelle salt (a contact semiconductor used for crystal detectors) is potassium sodium tartrate.