Grain bill too complex?

[rockeye84]

Hi all,

Do you think my grain bill is too complex on this one? I had 0.20kg joe white caramalt in there too, but ditched it, fearing it would be a bit over the top with three different crystal style malts. Trying to get close to the complexity one finds in commercial pale ales.

Going for a little sweetness but not over the top, hoping for slight roastyness, with a bit of breadyness, was also toying with the idea of vienna & munich in even amounts to about 20-25% of the grain bill. Ive read some comercial pales use upto 10 different grain types? But also simplicity is good sometimes right?

Last pale I did was 86%base 10%vienna 4%light crystal, mashed at 67c & I found the malt profile a little flat against the hops.

Any suggestions welcome.


62.00 l Rain Water
16.00 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 2 -
8.00 g Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 3 -
6.00 g Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 4 -

5.20 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (5.9 EBC) Grain 5 63.4 %
1.50 kg Munich, Light (Joe White) (17.7 EBC) Grain 6 18.3 %
0.50 kg Vienna Malt (9.0 EBC) Grain 7 6.1 %
0.50 kg Wheat Malt, Malt Craft (Joe White) (3.5 EBC) Grain 8 6.1 %
0.30 kg Crystal, Medium (Simpsons) (155.0 EBC) Grain 9 3.7 %
0.20 kg Crystal, Light (Joe White) (135.0 EBC) Grain 10 2.4 %

10.00 g Cascade [7.10 %] - First Wort 150.0 min Hop 11 5.5 IBUs

10.00 g Cascade [7.10 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 12 4.6 IBUs

20.00 g Cascade [7.10 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 13 5.5 IBUs
10.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 14 4.7 IBUs

2.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 15 -
5.00 g Yeast Nutrient (Boil 15.0 mins) Other 16 -

20.00 g Cascade [7.10 %] - Boil 12.5 min Hop 17 4.0 IBUs
10.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 12.5 min Hop 18 3.4 IBUs

30.00 g Cascade [7.10 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 19 2.7 IBUs
30.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 20 4.6 IBUs

Chill Wort To 70C at 0mins

30.00 g Stand For 20mins - Cascade [7.10 %]
30.00 g Stand For 20mins - Citra [12.00 %]

Prot rest at 50c for 20 min
Mash at 67c for 90 min
Mash out at 75c

60min boil

American Ale II (Wyeast Labs #1272) 3.5L Starter

Ferment at 19c

Est Original Gravity: 1.046 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.011 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.5 %
Bitterness: 35.0 IBUs
Est Color: 17.8 EBC

 

[Phoney]

For a fairly standard APA me personally I wouldnt bother with the Vienna and I would probably just stick to the one type of crystal. Maybe a dark crystal if you are looking for a roasty flavour or biscuit/aromatic if you are after breadyness.

 

[yankinoz]

With that recipe you'll get your malt notes. The JW Vienna is superfluous if you're adding that much Munich, but so what? Or just use 2 kg of Munich and no Vienna. The wheat will be subtle, but probably detectable.

You are adding notes of caramel and melanoidin. If you like caramel in an APA, such as Sierra Nevada, go for it. If not, cut it down. Some like to balance the APA hops with caramel, some with melanoidin-supplying malts, some with both. It's your call, but as a test of what you like it might be best to either add Munich or raise the crystal, but not do both at one time.

On complex malt bills, the question is what does each item add. If you like rye in a pale ale, you could try adding it in a later batch. I've seen recipes with five different crystal malts. They are complementary; whether the added "complexity" is detectable is another matter, but no harm would be done.

Complex malt bills are very common and often successful in darker beers where melanoidin, caramel, toast, roast, biscuit and nutty notes (e.g. Victory) combine well.

FYI: JW Vienna has an awfully high diastatic value for a Vienna, but also less malt aroma, and I suspect its melanoidin contribution is low for a Vienna. It's my base malt of preference in many partial mashes, but a poor sub in AG recipes based on continental Viennas.

 

[NewtownClown]

"Brewing on the Ones: Zen & the Art of Homebrewing" at the 2012 National Homebrewers Conference.
His message is clear: SIMPLIFY!

 

[manticle]

Complexity in final flavour is about balancing the ingredients you do have, not simply adding more.

As suggested above - think about what each brings and what you want in the end product.

For me, if I were making an APA and I wanted some complexity in the malt bill (I usually do) I would look at changing my pale base to something like maris otter, adding in a decent UK crystal (or blend of UK crystals but around half of what you have) and something toasty for the mid point - a touch of biscuit or victory for example.

Use some calcium chloride to push the malt, some calcium sulphate to push the hops.

If you want roastiness you should add a shade of roast - you have none.
No real need for the wheat in my opinion although some may differ. Bump the 50 degree rest up by 3-5 degrees, reduce it to 5 minutes and add in a 72 rest for 10 and your head retention should be plenty.

You can use munich or Vienna for 100% of the base in a pale which I have done and it should be nice - I prefer the maris though.

Personally I find Joe White Vienna and munich to be streets away from weyermann which I much prefer.

 

[rockeye84]

Cheers for the replies lads,

Ive done 3 or 4 similar brews, but am yet to nail a real bang on cracker! Although my mates reckon they're all good. What free beer aint good. I suppose you're always your own biggest critic.

So.. Ditch the vienna.. up the munich to 2kg or just replace the .5kg vienna with base? I like SN PA, kinda the style im going for... So keep the crystal as is? Or add more or reduce? Might leave the wheat in. I don't have any victory, biscuit on hand.. My local HB store dont stock much.

And few minor changes to the mash..

 

[manticle]

What free beer aint good.

I can think of many I've come across in my time.

 

[Midnight Brew]

For APA's I generally work backwards with the grain bill.

2% Crystal (enough for me I dont like larger amounts in my apas but thats personal preferance) or Crystal % determined by desired colour. I just use darker crystal and sit at 2%.
5-10% Wheat
20-30% Munich
Rest is your base ale or pilsner malt
Aim for 1.050 with a medium body profile.

There are so many ways to do it, just brew, drink and learn what you like best. You might find you nail a recipe how you want it then use that recipe to experiment with other ingredients like rye instead of wheat, vienna instead of munich, UK malts instead of domestic and so on.

Im yet to try a APA with 10 various malts. Not sure if I'd like it.

 

[yankinoz]

If you like SN go with the crystal and make one of the additions darker. Another time try the recipe with the Munich too. Keep notes. Joy, joy.

 

[rockeye84]

Ya right! There is so many ways to do it, its just sooo hard to pick one.. Cheers for all the info..

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Balance is the key. A lot of brewers tend to over complicate the grain bill and everything gets lost.

Personally I have stuck to the 3 grain principle, and occasionally go 4.

No point adding Vienna or Munich if it gets swallowed by med or dark xtals.

Just my 1.5c worth.

 

[rockeye84]

Guna go with 6% crystal & see how it goes. Done a brew prior with about that much crystal & liked it, not sure about the munich tho, reckon I should dial back the munich a bit or leave it as is?

5.60 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (5.9 EBC) Grain 5 68.3 %
1.60 kg Munich, Light (Joe White) (17.7 EBC) Grain 6 19.5 %
0.50 kg Wheat Malt, Malt Craft (Joe White) (3.5 EBC) Grain 8 6.1 %
0.25 kg Crystal, Medium (Simpsons) (155.0 EBC) Grain 9 3.0 %
0.25 kg Crystal, Light (Joe White) (135.0 EBC) Grain 10 3.0 %

cheers

 

[fletcher]

looks good to me

 

[dicko]

You could drop the Vienna if you wish but apart from the grain I would add your steeped hop additions at a temperature somewhere between 80 and 85 degrees for twenty minutes rather than the 70 degrees.
The hotter temp will give you just that little bit more flavour and aroma.

 

[Mardoo]

FWIW I'll share what I've been learning about this, from roughly your same level of learning. Too many different malts muddy the picture. The final beer ends up flabby and indistinct. Against my nature, I'm having to admit that adding more isn't better. It's the same as with cooking. It's easier to make the flavors work together when there aren't too many of them. As much as I'd like to think I can, I can't really make 15 different flavors work well together. 4 yes, and maybe 5 or 6, but that's about it.

In terms of beer, the folks I've seen who can mix many things in complex recipes successfully are the ones who know the individual malts, adjuncts and extras they're using very, very well. Either that or they've gone through a WHOLE FREAKIN' LOT of trial and error to reach that understanding.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Same goes for hops...use 1 or 2...not the whole HBS inventory

 

[rockeye84]

You could drop the Vienna if you wish but apart from the grain I would add your steeped hop additions at a temperature somewhere between 80 and 85 degrees for twenty minutes rather than the 70 degrees.
The hotter temp will give you just that little bit more flavour and aroma.

Will the temp being higher add any ibu's?

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Will the temp being higher add any ibu's?

Yes. You are best off boiling your hops in malt to extract the maximum from them

 

[Black n Tan]

Will the temp being higher add any ibu's?

Yes you will get some isomerisation (read IBU's) at 80-85C but not at 70C. Have a read of this article about the hop stands at different temps.

https://byo.com/component/k2/item/2808-hop-stands

 

[dicko]

Will the temp being higher add any ibu's?

Yes technically it will but a couple of IBU's is hard to detect at the HB level.
You may gain a lot more aroma and some flavour than what you may gain in bittering units.

Personally I recon your recipe is pretty good.
You dont have excess crystals and apart from the small amount of Vienna I would run with it as it is. If you decide to omit the Vienna then you could sub its weight for either pale or Munich...your choice!