Ghetto Braumeister - Biab W/ Controller

[Bizier]

Has anyone made a PID/other controlled recirculated BIAB vessel?

I am in the middle of a 3v brewery build, and I keep thinking how easy it would be to control an electric boiler (pot with element or Crown style urn) with a PID, put a little raised FB in the bottom for the bag to sit on and allow the pump to easily draw liquor from beneath.

If you took the temperature where the wort draws from under the FB, it should be your hottest part of the mash and should also be transferred to the top again, so not build up heat and denature enzymes.

If you used a small pump and efficiently sized controller box, the thing could be pretty tiny.

If you included a little hoist, you could set it high enough so the bottom of the bag is just touching the surface of the wort and do a clarifying step to keep any particulate in the bag.

The main thing though is that it would have to be able to be done seriously on the cheap and provide use as a compact and reliable wort producer for those in apartments etc.

As svelte and sexy as a Braumeister, perhaps not; but close, perhaps.

Has anyone done this?
Thoughts?

I did a quick search and saw something on HBT, but I couldn't see the images.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Essentially you would be looking at the "mash tun" component of an electric brutus 10, add a bag. A couple of people have done things essentially like this.

Funny really - IIRC it was people seeing the braumeister and speculating on how to build a ghetto version thereof, that started the threads and conversations about an "all in one" brewing system which eventually lead to the idea of BIAB in the first place.ntheremwe a few variations on the all in one theme tried out... BIAB emerged as the popular favourite, but it wasn't the only workable system built.

 

[ekul]

Theres a video of a ghetto one on youtube if you do some searching there. I reckon biab with RIMS or herms could be great. Probably wouldn't get the same wort clarity as a 3v system, but most off that **** falls out in hte whirlpool anyway. You'd get the most important part though, which is the repeatability of a recirculated heted mash. I've been thinking about rims ona biab for ages, but at the moment i have other things to buy.

If you do it make sure you put up a build, so that others can see it.

 

[aaronpetersen]

I've been recently thinking about setting up the exact same system, although I hadn't considered recirculating through the hoisted bag, which seems like a brilliant idea. Unless you're planning to do automated step mashes I don't think you need a PID. I reckon a Tempmate or similar would suffice as you are heating a fairly large volume of water so overshoot shouldn't be a concern. That is based purely on theory (my theory) with no actual experience of the matter so I could be completely wrong.
Here's a link to a gas fired version link

 

[beerbrewer76543]

I started building a 70L ghetto Braumeister but changed my tact as I wanted to be able to brew double batches of high gravity beer so I opted for a 3V setup (nearing completion)

I think you could get around the efficiency issues with high gravity brewing by adding a second vessel for a sparging step but this moves away from the KISS approach of the Braumeister

 

[Bizier]

That gas one is on the money, except I am thinking a much smaller form factor. And why just go a temp mate when you can get a PID off eBay for $20 or so?

I reckon if you had the following, you would have a neat little ghetto system:

40L Al pot - $78 +gst
Element - $39.90
Pump - $35 ish
PID - $26ish
SSR + Heatsink - About $10 all up
12v 0.5A Supply for pump - $5
PT100 Probe - $9


A couple of switches and threaded fittings, a little bent copper, an electronics housing and you should be gold.

So perhaps doable for $250 *provided you have access to a sparky* and can manage some housing.

I figure you need a length of silicone hose to go to the top of the kettle, where you could have some kind of female camlock (or even just slide 1/2" pipe into it) so you can swap between a sparge ring, a little tangential output for a whirlpool, and your final output fill hose.

 

[Bizier]

And I am thoroughly into building a 3v HERMS System, so this is purely musing, but if I bought a small apartment, I would be totally starting something like this.

 

[vykuza]

I'm actually in the process of doing this right now. I was going to go 3V, but came to to conclusion that I really don't have the space for it. However, I also really wanted to do stepped mashes and I find it a pain using BIAB.

Though it's not going to be super ghetto (as fart as cost is concerned) I'm confident that it will still be cheaper than a 20L braumeister. I'm using my existing 40L birko, having a perforated false bottom fabricated to keep the bag off the element, as well as give the bag (and .. grain bed I suppose) a flat surface in which to settle and act as a filter. I'll be driving the urn's own element with the Auber PID and SSR to get the correct temperature, and recirculate with a march 809. The wort flow is via the urn's tap, through the pump and back to the top of the bag. When the mash is finished, disconnect the pump, hoist the bag, (sparge if necessary) set the PID's step to all-systems-go and boil as normal.

I'm building the pump, pid and SSR into a toolbox for easy storage. Like this guy: http://brewing.lustreking.com/gear/portapump.html

My sticking point at the moment is wort return into the urn. I'm not sure whether just sticking a hose to the side of the urn will disturb the contents of the bag too much, considering the water/grain ratio makes the mash so loose.

 

[Harry Volting]

Funny how the collective AHB consciousness works.
I've suffered from Braumeister lust since I first met...sorry; saw one in the flesh at MHB.
Well worth the outlay (all things considered) and I want one.

My alternative in the mean time is a cheap but effective compromise known to my family as Godzilla.
A 48 litre urn, stc1000 controller and a 12 volt high temp food grade recirc pump from Thailand. All ebay.
A heap of Mr Bunnings plumbing hardware and a sheet of perforated stainless sheet from MHB.
Less than $250 from memory. I started using it as BIAB but now use it as a mash tun (no sparge).
My original BIAB 30 litre urn is now my boil kettle.
Reliable for over a year and I brew every other week.

Hope this helps.
Harry

 

[felten]

I've also often thought it would be fairly cheap and easy to add a pump and a false bottom and have a recirculated BIAB, but using gas instead rims/herms, like a manual brutus10. I'm way too cheap to give it a go though, and there's probably a lot of problems that would crop up I can't even think of. Adding an element and a controller would definitely be the way to go, but would require even more cash to setup.

If you could fit a malt pipe in there like the braumaister it would be even cooler, the grain bed wouldn't get moved around as much as it would in a bag, possibly undoing all your work in recirculating for clarity.

 

[Phoney]

Ive made a contraption that's slightly different. I built a box that sits on the top of the urn lid with a temperature probe that protrudes down into the wort, as well as a great big SS mixing device that's controlled by a gear motor. In a separate box i've got a mashmaster temperature controller that controls the on/off for the urn & a 12V switchmode power supply that drives the gear motor.

Basically it constantly stirs the mash and holds the mash at a constant temperature without the need for insulation, or manual stirring when ramping up to mash-out.

It works OK.

 

[WhiteWolf]

I've built one (I use an Aubrins PID) and I have to say it has made the BIAB concept even easier for me. Things that I have learnt along the way - some I haven't bothered to fix yet:

1) Choose the right element - I got 2x2200W SS elements that are straight rods - awesome heating capability but the whirlpool isn't as effective since they are in the way - circular ones or curved ones would be the ducks nuts.

2) Insulate the pot well - this way the elements aren't on for long and there is less chance to denature the enzymes

3) Step mashes are still better if you add boiling water to get the temp quickly - there is a lot to heat to the step

3) Go to a chinese pot store and they have SS steamer inserts (you are meant to use a trivet in chinese cooking but I use 3 x long SS bolts) that you can use as a false bottom - very cheap

4) Continuous stirring is your friend for effeciency in BIAB, this doesn't seem to work to well with recirc (well mine anyway) - my next mod is to try continuous stirring for first 30 mins of mash and then recirc for clarity.

5) The clarity after recirc is surprisingly good (better than pull and squeeze) but if you can't help squeezing (which I can't) there is no major difference.

Hope this helps some.
WW.

 

[Bribie G]

I looked at the same type of system last year, and made up a design with a march pump, inner sleeve with a false bottom and a two way ball valve coming out of the urn. Left branch into the march pump, right branch into a silicone hose into the cube / chiller. After checking out the prices, I just bought a second urn and now do double batches easily, by staggering the start time of the two urns by 30 minutes to spread the activity load.

I wasn't going to use a PID, just keep an eye on the temperature using a probe with the wort out of the pump flooding round it and manually stop or start the urn element. I decided on the inner sleeve because (as discussed with TB at the time), you can't really get a grain bed - as such - in a bag as the wort is always looking for the path of least resistance and will flow out of the sides etc. With an urn, a modified Bunnings handi pail would make a good starting point.

I think the insistence on bright wort into the kettle is at the heart of Braumeister because it's the way the do things in that country - Vorlauf etc. However it's not an issue with UK style beers that I mostly make, and whilst the wort into the kettle is not clear, my wort out of the kettle into the cube is bright, and I run into Schott Bottles until it is running bright, so get virtually nil hot break into the cube. I've cranked out a couple of traditional style Euro Lagers / Pilseners for the forthcoming comps rounds using bog standard BIAB, so time will tell. :icon_cheers:

 

[Malted]

Is it cool to dob in someone else without their permission? (even if I have done it before?)



Ghetto Braumeister er I mean homemade BIAB on steroids built by Gopha:

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...mp;#entry782279 POST #20

 

[aaronpetersen]

PID - $26ish

I'm a complete electronic ignoramus so excuse me if this is a stupid question, but is that PID up to the task? The relay contact load is stated as: 250V AC / 3A, 250V AC / 1A. I have no idea why there are two sets of numbers, but I thought it would have to be able to switch ~240V / 10A to run that 2200W element. If they are suitable then I'd certainly be tempted to buy one.
Any idea if that pump is food grade?

 

[Bizier]

I'm a complete electronic ignoramus so excuse me if this is a stupid question, but is that PID up to the task? The relay contact load is stated as: 250V AC / 3A, 250V AC / 1A. I have no idea why there are two sets of numbers, but I thought it would have to be able to switch ~240V / 10A to run that 2200W element. If they are suitable then I'd certainly be tempted to buy one.
Any idea if that pump is food grade?

PID switches a relay with control current - relay is rated for element (preferrably overspecced) and switches element.

 

[Bizier]

I guess people are right re: malt pipe vs bag, but it could still totally be done. Surely there is some cheap SS open ended sleeve thing out there that would fit inside the bag.

I say screw watching temps. PID is money well spent on saved labour.

 

[Florian]

I've posted it before but I'll post it again in case you haven't seen it yet. Might give you some ideas regarding malt pipe, hop feeder and programming.

http://hobbybrauer.de/modules.php?name=eBo...ad&tid=4639

Happy to translate if need be.

 

[Malted]

I've posted it before but I'll post it again in case you haven't seen it yet. Might give you some ideas regarding malt pipe, hop feeder and programming.

http://hobbybrauer.de/modules.php?name=eBo...ad&tid=4639

Happy to translate if need be.

I find Google translate gets close enough for me to trawl through the hobbybrauer forum...

Edit: I have looked at that link othertimes you have posted. It is a very impressive homemade jobby.

 

[aaronpetersen]

PID switches a relay with control current - relay is rated for element (preferrably overspecced) and switches element.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.