Fully Automated Brewing System Design

[cooperplace]

Thats the response I hope to get. I have tried a 9V battery on the normally open one in reverse polarity, but not 12V. The normally closed one needed 12V to actuate open, but got a sililar bore. I have pushed it as far as she'll go sir, I can not push it anymore.

HI Bandito,

Glad to see this is still happening. Don't take too much notice of the people who tell you that you MUST do it their way! I don't think it really matters whether this project goes to fruition, we can all learn learn something along the way. Good luck.

 

[Bandito]

It would seem thats all they open. I'll put down a mash and empty a fermenter to see if the particals pass, but I guess I'm spending the long weekend designing my own. It might just be a matter of ensuring the false bottom drill size is less, and that the false bottom is sealed at its edge with teflon or silicon tube.

 

[komodo]

http://www.metalmesh.com.au/cfm/index.cfm?...on=cfm/home.cfm Look here for suitable mesh for your false bottom
They have some with 0.5, 0.8 and 1mm holes which might filter your grain bed enough?

 

[Bandito]

Thanks Komodo :beer: the 0.5mm looks good, thats the bore of the normally closed version. with a bit of stiffening, it could work. I got a couple of handi pales today, so I will drill them out with a 0.5mm bit, and see if I get any flow!

Honestly though, I am dissapointed with this issue, and will design a full bore pinch valve for 1/2" silicon. It wil be a geared motor with a threaded shaft that a winged nut travels up and down, the nut will have a round knife blade attached (technical term) that will come down to pinch the tube. This will be housed in a machined bottom which will have 3 basic holes, one for the tube to go through, one to unconstrict the pinched part of the tube so it sits flat, and a hole to house the round nut with cutouts for the wings so it can go up and down without turning. Simple! Very similar to these ones, in fact I cant believe how similar they are in construction to how I thought they would be. There will also need to be a spring - probably between the nut and the knife for pressure adjustment, and metal contacts for cutoff switching.

There is still plenty of time in the schedule to design these from scratch and have them made

I think these stock ones could work, but unless I see it working well, I doubt I will be happy with it - and since this will be making beer for me for the rest of my life, I want to be completely happy with it.

I will definetely use these stock ones for the caustic and starsan dosing and strike water dosing from the HLT, and probably for co2 release - so at the worst case, I may have 7 spare. Mabee I could implement the direct fermenter cleaning suggested by ///

Quite motivated atm, going to start modeling it in cad now.

 

[yardy]

is all this still being built in the laundry ?

 

[Bandito]

Yep.

home brew design so far

 

[Bandito]

Just done an initial test on the peristaltic pump, and have uploaded a video here:

The album is here:http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j248/alienbandit/beer2/ and am uploading anotherone at the moment.

It is just me narating pumping a brew out of a fermenter into sodastream bottles, but so far these pumps seem good. I may be the first to use silicon tubing in it, and I should mention that I got two of them for free because they have not been tested but may be suitable for use with harder tube than is currently available as stock. I did ask if I could get more for the rest of ahb'eers, but not so lucky.

This is just a little sample before I make a review thread when I have sufficient data to do so.

I am currently only running it at 12 volts, but it is rated at 24 Volts, so the pumping rate will increase dramatically when I get a proper power supply.

What amazes me is that the pinch valve tubing fits into the pump, it runs, but not sure if it is the same wall thinkness yet.

Next on the books is a head height test. These are the ones I intend to use in my system.

 

[Bandito]

Been a very eventful day. I dismantled both types of pinch valves and have managed to increase the bore to what should be a usable amount! did some flow tests (just marked a low point about 1cm above the outlet in a 5L handi pail, then poured in 3L of water, and let gravity take it out):

Normally closed valve:
Stock bore: ~0.8mm
Modified bore: ~1.6mm
Stock flow for 3L: 24m46s
Modified flow for 3L:2m55s
Modification status: Still a but fiddley, sometimes doesnt actuate at 12 Volts due to the spring being too tight, will have to try higher actuation voltages or reduce bore so the spring is looser.

Normally open valve:
Stock bore: ~0.6mm
Modified bore: 2.0mm
Stock flow for 3L: not tested
Modified flow for 3L: 2m15s
Modification status: Satisfied - actuates at any setting and as low as 9Volts, and remains actuated and quite cool down to 3V (so far)

Full tube bore:6.35mm (1/4")
Full tube flow for 3L: 2m09s


Also using a bulldog clip as a manual pinch valve - it needs a couple of bent copper plates to smooth out the gaps, and a latch to keep it open when required, but I think it would make a very nice manual pinch valve for the fermenter airlock while crash chilling, and for manual systems too - anyone using one?

Pic is of an upside down normally open type showing the bottom unscrewed, the top is also unscrewed.
Modified on the left, stock setup on the right :beerbang:

 

[bigfridge]

It is just me narating pumping a brew out of a fermenter into sodastream bottles, but so far these pumps seem good. I may be the first to use silicon tubing in it, and I should mention that I got two of them for free because they have not been tested but may be suitable for use with harder tube than is currently available as stock. I did ask if I could get more for the rest of ahb'eers, but not so lucky.

Mate,

We have tried to tell you that it has all been done before - you just need to look at the published literature

Silicone would have to be THE most common tubing used with Peristatic pumps.

We all wish you well, but I have to wonder - $6,000 spent and not a drop of beer to show for it.

Man, where are your priorities !

 

[Bandito]

Sorry Bigfridge, I dont mean any disrespect, but you have misinterpreted everything you mentioned in your post.

 

[Zwickel]

Bandito, Im wondering how much wort or beer youd like to pump with that tiny little rollerpump.
What is that pump for?

I was searching the thread again, but couldnt find the right answer.

Cheers :icon_cheers:

 

[Bandito]

Hey Zwickle, I am aiming for 600mL per minute. I hope to only use one to suck boiled wort through a chiller , through the pump and pump it into the fermenter - 3 batches of 20L at a time. But I might be tempted to use the other one in a herms.

The documentation I have says that at the 12V that I was using it in the video, it should be doing just over 100rpm, and pumping 3mL per revolution, so 300ml per minute. But at the rated 24V that it is supposed to run at, it should do 225rpm, which is 675mL per minute. Some overvolting might increase that, but would result in a blown motor at some voltage.
Currently, only pharmed tubing is available for the model - until I prove at silicon is better and they add it as another option.

PFD attached - is quite hard to find.

View attachment AUTOBREW_01_rev_T.pdf

 

[Zwickel]

Hey Zwickle, I am aiming for 600mL per minute. I hope to only use one to suck boiled wort through a chiller , through the pump and pump it into the fermenter - 3 batches of 20L at a time.

The documentation I have says that at the 12V that I was using it in the video, it should be doing just over 100rpm, and pumping 3mL per revolution, so 300ml per minute. But at the rated 24V that it is supposed to run at, but should do 225rpm, which is 675mL per minute. Some overvolting might increase that, but would result in a blown motor at some voltage.
Currently, only pharmed tubing is available for the model - until I prove at silicon is better and they add it as another option.

PFD attached - is quite hard to find.

Sorry Bandito, your calculation is not right.

the increase of pumpvolume is not linear to the revolutions.
If youre going to speed up the pump, the soft silicon tube will not be able to suck the desired volume, it even will collapse at a certain negative pressure (inlet).
So you may not be able to speed up the pump significantly, anyway not linear.

honestly, 600ml/h is a PITA, would take 100min for my 60l batch.

Mate, Im knowing what Im talking about, Im using roller pumps as well....everyday:

Thats my equipment, each rollerpump pumps up to 8liter/h

 

[Bandito]

Thanks for the heads up. So its a good thing that although, based on the documentation, I might expect to get 675mL per minute, that I am still only aiming for 600mL per minute. And since I am only planning on doing 20L batches, that would take 22 minutes per batch, then a few hours later another 20L, etc. The flow rate is based on the cooling ability of a plate chiller or similar, the time it takes doesnt really bother me, as, after extensive testing, I will be fishing, sleeping working or watching TV while its doing it.

Dude! what is that in the pic? and are those rotary pumps? As opposed to peristaltic? Edit: just had another look, and they do seem to be peristaltic as the tube doesnt coil around 360deg, and so requires two rollers instead of one - thats how I understand it anyway.

Please do tell what that instrument is - best guess is HPLC, some sort of LC? I'm only chemical, must be bio?

Yea, the tube collapsing under nagative pressure was really worrying me with the tiny stock bore of the pinch valves, now that they are more open I am very relieved, but it still requires some actual brew condition testing - will be emptying some dregs from a nochill cube into the above mentioned 5L pail, as well as some sediment, and after testing that, I might make a 5L bucket in a bucket brew. Also plan to make an impromptu herms using a kitchen kettle with teflon tube coiled up in it, a cake mixer as a stirrer, peri pump, and manual temp control!

 

[MHB]

Teflon has (IIRC) one of the worst rates of thermal transfer known, wouldnt be much use as a heat exchanger coil, stainless or copper would be much better.

Mark

 

[Bandito]

Yea, but its all I have atm, and after pumping boiling water through it last night - I know it gets very frickin hot! Its just an impromptu dry run so to speak - just to get a feel or various elements - tomorow nights post should be a minimashers dream - or nightmare.

So while we are on the topic of peristaltic pumps and silicon, I have a question regarding lubricants :unsure: . The stock pharmed tubing came lubricated, but since I have swapped it out for silicon, what lubricant should I use? Since the tubing is silicon I guess it should not be petrolium based, and so I guess that er.. water based 'four seasons' condom lubricant is acceptable?

 

[MHB]

Well there are lots of silicone greases out there, other places to find top end grease are a good bike shop or a fishing tackle store, Im pretty sure I have some 6 mm Nulon Peristaltic Pump line kicking around, Ill have a look in the morning.

Just checked up on PTFE thermal conductance Cu 401, Stainless 12-45, glass 1.1, Cement 0.29, PTFE 0.25, it really isnt very good.

M

 

[Bandito]

Thanks for that mark, I do need some proper lube for long term testing. Nulon you say, might have to give it a go! 1/16" wall? I'll call next week.

Yea, it may not do much at all, but at 5L that I may or may not ferment, its more about the process of testing the pumping warm wort through the pump. Hope to also test my theory that wort gravity effects capacitance between two plates on opposite sides of a teflon tube - should also test on a silicon tube I spose.

 

[goomboogo]

Please do tell what that instrument is - best guess is HPLC, some sort of LC? I'm only chemical, must be bio?


Coronary by-pass.

 

[Bandito]

Wow! thats mad!

So I hooked up a very dodgy herms today. Been watching it run for the past few hours just with water in it. It seems to max out at about 60C or so with boiling the kettle - I mean herms every 1/2 hour or so. I think the tubing is a major source of heat loss, so I'll try insulating it a bit tomorrow and put the kettle on much more often, then might do a tiny test mash.

I was a bit worried about the pump motor temp, but upped the voltage from 9 to 13 Volts to reduce motor fatigue, and it seems to stabilise at about 55C at a guess. The modified normally open pinch valve maintains a closed state at 3 Volts and remains just warm, which is great.

The thousand or so 2mm holes in the bucket took a while to drill! Came up nice I think!

The teflon tube is coming in very handy, to join the silicon to the buckets, I drilled a 10mm hole, put the silicon tube through from the inside of the bucket, then pushed a short piece of the hardwalled teflon into the end and then pulled it through. The resulting compsite silicon/teflon tube makes a tight seal between the outer silicon and bucket wall, and the inner teflon provides the hardness to fix it in place without collapsing.

The teflon tube in the herms is far from ideal, but it is transferring heat nonetheless - about 10C difference with the low flow through - its just a test, although, who knows, perhaps a 1/32 wall thickness might be an idea.

The capacitance reading a quite unstabe at the moment, not sure why yet. But the capacitance of the two enameled wires sticky-taped to either side of a teflon tube showed that the capacitance of water increases with temperature. Next to see if wort concentration effects it too. Inductance readings with a cro didnt pan out, I need an inductance meter.