Fruit and nuts. In mash or boil?

[Danscraftbeer]

Did a bit of a search but didn't hit the nail on the head for the question.

So I'm intrigued by the cereal mash thing. To go more out of the square I'm curious about dried fruit and nuts into something dark most probably. Maybe call it Nutty Fruitcake Stout or something.
So obviously I'll have to crush the nuts and seeds but definitely wont be putting them through my mill.
I bought this stuff for healthy snacks but not really into it but thinking of putting all the below into something special.
Question is:
Do I put it in the mash?
In the boil?

or like a cereal mash in a separate pot eg.
10% of the main grain bill in a pot with the cereals/flours/meal etc and fruit and nuts. Raise to 50c for 15min, then boil for 15 minutes. Then add that into the main mash using whatever means so that its all mixed together at saccharificiation temps for the main mash step?

Using these. Not sure of the cereals or flours I'll use if any.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

You could call it "Pete Evans Paleo Ale"

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Let's think this through:

The dried fruits are going to add fermentables and flavours: best to extract both at once. To do this is you probably need to rehydrate them, make the innards accessible (split the fruit) and finally sieve out the spent fruit. I'd think about steeping in boiling water, whizzerising and adding to the mash so the lauter tun does the sieving required.

The nuts are there only for flavour and the flavours of nuts are carried on lipids. Lipids are bad news in beer, they add nothing positive and several negatives. Probably best to get any flavour you can out at the lowest temperature possible (to minimise lipid extraction). I'd think about crushing them finely, mixing them with warm water, allowing the mixture to steep for a while then sieve out the solids. Cool the liquid down and let any lipids separate (they'll float to the top) and add the liquid to the boil.

London to a brick you get no head retention in this beer.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Nuts are oily. ( Lipids )

Oil kills head retention

This is also the same reason that chocolate and coffee can be problematic in beers


As far as the dried fruits go, no real problem. Many brewers have made beers with all sorts of fruits. BUT, they are best suited to AG where you boil at the end to stop any natural yeast, moulds, bact..etc

 

[manticle]

Roasting nuts brings out oil and makes the nuts taste wonderful.
Toast, remove a significant portion of oil and leave behind.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

If my usual technique is to leave 4lt of muck in the keggle of cooled wort when I decant then wont any oils be left behind on the top of that?

 

[manticle]

No

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Bummer. It was a long shot I knew it. It was an enthusiastic thought for experimentation.
So basically dried fruits can be beneficial (maybe) and nuts are no good unless if you roast/toast them to discard most the oil. I can dig that.
I think I could still pull this off in a Barley Wine Spinoff somehow.
Something around 10 to 13% aged for at least 6 months in small bottles under the house like the last one that didn't have fruit and nuts.

Its a maybe brew.

 

[indica86]

https://bridgeroadbrewers.com.au/shop-beers/core/chestnut-pilsner/

I read into it once. Can't remember now.

http://www.beersmith.com/forum/index.php?topic=9527.0

 

[MHB]

Just did a bit of quick reading, as above my first concern would be the oils (more properly fats) and the effect on head.
Most of the common nuts are around 50% by weight fats (walnuts up to 65%w/w), so yes good reason to be concerned, it appears that roasting will only reduce the oil by up to 15%.
To put that in perspective Malted Barley will rarely exceed 4% (generally about 3.5%) total fatty acids, we can live with that because not all of the fats will get from the malt to the wort, during reproduction yeast will consume a fair fraction (hopefully all) the fatty acids to make new yeast cells.

Even well roasted nuts would contain 10 times as much fat as malt, cant see an easy way to avoid head problems and keep the desired nutty character.
For nuts about all I can think of would be an alcohol extract, tho I am far from sure that alcohol will extract the flavours you want, dried fruit not so much of a worry.
Mark

 

[manticle]

It's definitely possible though Dan. First it depends on how much you require head in the beer versus the nut element. Personally I value foam highly - a lot of aromatics and beer character is accentuated with lasting foam but it's not my beer.

Try PM'ing Ross from Bacchus - they have a number of specialty beers with distinct nut characters. Of the specialty beers of theirs I've tried, most have been excellent and no memory of head problems so they may have some tricks.

 

[good4whatAlesU]

Roast the nuts, catch the smoke and bubble it through the wort. (?).
Might add a roasted nut flavour without adding any of the oils.

 

[good4whatAlesU]

PS. Roasted pine nuts smell really nice, Mrs often roasts them in a pan and puts them in a salad.

Not sure whether running the smoke into the wort or beer? Could maybe force carb/smoke into the beer/keg with a line splitter or something?....

 

[Danscraftbeer]

I have come to the conclusion that this will be good for that once a year Barley Wine. Its Only a 9lt brew. Its bottle conditioned.
Head retention isn't important in this case since you get minimal head in the first place. Its a Wine. But beer...

OG ~ 1.110
FG ~ 1.013
Color ~ 25 EBC
ABV ~ 13%

Bottle conditioned/carbed for at least 6 months. It does seem low in carbonation.

Its got lots of body and flavour, and a kick. Nice in a sip able sense.

Thanks fellow brewers.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Someone posted earlier today about a Sirene "Praline" beer which suggests a method that might be applicable here:

If you've ever cooked praline, you know it's just toffee with nuts in it.

I make my own "Candi" syrup for making a Belgian golden ale, the method could easily be adapted for praline. It consists of cooking up a toffee to the appropriate colour level and then redissolving it in enough water to make 60 Brix syrup.

If you threw the nuts into the toffee before making the syrup you would definitely get nutty flavour into the brew via the syrup. If you are interested, I'll post details of how to do this.

 

[manticle]

Roast the nuts, catch the smoke and bubble it through the wort. (?).
Might add a roasted nut flavour without adding any of the oils.

Not sure of the mechanism you'd suggest to do this but it would presumably add a smoked nut flavaour - smoke might be out of place (or not)

 

[good4whatAlesU]

hmmm not sure. They are doing all sorts of flavour infusions gas/liquid in cooking nowadays must be a way.

http://www.isi.com/en/culinary/products/isi-accessories/rapid-infusion/

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Don't start. Now I'm thinking of backyard smoke injections into wort. No, no, no. But then again it could be done ha.

 

[nosco]

Powdered peanut butter or almond meal? Kind of limited flavours i know......