First Small Batch Ag. Confused About Sanitation Recommendations.

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Beerisyummy

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Hi All,

Just tried my hand at a small AG BIAB. Sierra nevada PA clone. It was an experience to say the least and the smells/flavours were freaking amazing.
A quick thanks to Dave at Daves home brew shop on Miller street North Sydney. I run my own business so it's only fair to show appreciation for the quality of service. He may not remember my name but the advice, as always, has been sound along with the product.

My questions stem from a huge amount of information on sanitation. I'm cool with the whole difference between sanitation and sterilisation but there are a whole lot of things that aren't making sense.

What sort of temps are needed for sanitation of a vessel and how long must they be maintained for?

What sort of final Alc vol kills off most things?

Will a healthy yeast culture outcompete all but the best infections?

If you have links to long winded studies I'm happy to read them. The search funtion on this site sucks. Maybe it's just me, but I've never had such a poor result from searches.


Cheers

Ross.
 

mwd

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Most people use a chemical sanitiser search for Starsan, Iodophor or bleach vinegar lots of threads on the correct dilution ratios.
mix up with tap water not temperature dependant.
 

manticle

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Hi All,

Just tried my hand at a small AG BIAB. Sierra nevada PA clone. It was an experience to say the least and the smells/flavours were freaking amazing.
A quick thanks to Dave at Daves home brew shop on Miller street North Sydney. I run my own business so it's only fair to show appreciation for the quality of service. He may not remember my name but the advice, as always, has been sound along with the product.

My questions stem from a huge amount of information on sanitation. I'm cool with the whole difference between sanitation and sterilisation but there are a whole lot of things that aren't making sense.

What sort of temps are needed for sanitation of a vessel and how long must they be maintained for?

What sort of final Alc vol kills off most things?

Will a healthy yeast culture outcompete all but the best infections?

If you have links to long winded studies I'm happy to read them. The search funtion on this site sucks. Maybe it's just me, but I've never had such a poor result from searches.


Cheers

Ross.
There are answers to your questions about heat etc - I think 72-75 degrees for 2 minutes is a good minimum level for pasteurising (although dairy paseurisation is quicker than this) - the hotter temps require less times, the longer times require less heat. However some microflora are heat resistant and may require multiple doses over a few days or some other method. Steam can be used to sterilise/sanitise too.

There's a couple of files attached at the end in regards to pasteurisation temperatures and time. Google pasteurisation temperature time and you will get more - stuff from the USFDA etc.

Beer (not wort) has a pH level that is unfriendly to most microbes and allegedly all microbes that cause disease in humans. The alcohol level and hops help with some microbial resistance too but wiping beer on a needle wouldn't give enough alc% to replace ethanol wipes. This article (specifially related to beer) suggests around 70% ethyl alcohol is good. Different alcohols have better sanitising properties but may have limited use due to other qualities (toxicity etc): http://www.shroomery.org/8431/A-Complete-G...-and-Sanitation Also has heat vs time comparisons.

A Healthy yeast culture will help resist dominance from other microbes but is certainly no replacement for cleanliness and good sanitiation. As you understand the difference between sanitation and sterilisation, you will also understand that you are merely reducing the risk of microbial contamination and subsequent flavour impact with everything you do. Therefore the more short cuts, the more risks etc. You find the level that works for you and your brewing.

Most people use a sanitiser that works by pH (either basic like chlorine or acidic like starsan) or by oxidation like iodophor or sodium metabisulphite. Starsan uses phosphoric acid as its active ingredient, iodophor is an iodine solution.

As for the search function - you will find much better success if you use the google search bar just above the 'default forum search' bar when you click seacrh.

Unless you type in the right syntax etc, the default bar is renowned to return poor results.

View attachment DFSV_Technical_Standard_1_High_Temperature_Short_Pasteurisation_August_2005_1_.pdf

View attachment DFSV_Technical_Standard_2_Low_Temperature_Long_Pasteurisation_August_2005_1_.pdf
 

wbosher

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Try Starsan, you'll never look back. Heaps of information on this site about that product.
 

manticle

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'cept it's currently out of stock everywhere in AU.
 

jaypes

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Phosphoric Acid diluted with tap water for a sanitiser - leave for 5 mins and shake off excess as it is a no rinse sanitiser. I started off using Iodophor, but was never really comfortable with it.

I had a mate of mine stay with some Hare Krishnas a while back and he told me they put iodine in all of their food, but thats another story
 

Ironsides

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I use phosphoric acid. The stuff i've been buying comes 82% strength and needs to be diluted. From memory 4ml per L of water does the trick. It is significantly cheaper than starsan, only comes to about $9 for 250 ml which is enough to make 60L odd.
 

stux

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I use phosphoric acid. The stuff i've been buying comes 82% strength and needs to be diluted. From memory 4ml per L of water does the trick. It is significantly cheaper than starsan, only comes to about $9 for 250 ml which is enough to make 60L odd.
Are you sure its significantly cheaper

Starsan = 34.90 for 900ml which is enough to make 600L odd.

ie 3.5$ per 60L which is cheaper than 9$.

And I use about 3-6L total per 60L batch (brewing, fermenting, kegging). which works out to about 10c per single batch.
 

Diesel80

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Are you sure its significantly cheaper

Starsan = 34.90 for 900ml which is enough to make 600L odd.

ie 3.5$ per 60L which is cheaper than 9$.

And I use about 3-6L total per 60L batch (brewing, fermenting, kegging). which works out to about 10c per single batch.

FARK i must be overusing the starsan chronically. Since it is out of stock I best look at cutting back the strength. Must survive the Starsan drought.

Thanks for the tip.

Though I have never had an infected batch.... Kinda scared to change. :p
Cheers,
D80
 

stux

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FARK i must be overusing the starsan chronically. Since it is out of stock I best look at cutting back the strength. Must survive the Starsan drought.

Thanks for the tip.

Though I have never had an infected batch.... Kinda scared to change. :p
Cheers,
D80
1.5ml/L is the correct dosage, any stronger and its not guaranteed to be no-rinse!

4.5ml = 3L, which works out well if you use a 5ml baby syringe to measure it into a 3L jug
 

JaseH

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1.5ml/L is the correct dosage, any stronger and its not guaranteed to be no-rinse!

4.5ml = 3L, which works out well if you use a 5ml baby syringe to measure it into a 3L jug
I use 5ml per 3L and store it in a large glass jar so I can re-use it over and over again.
 

Beerisyummy

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There are answers to your questions about heat etc - I think 72-75 degrees for 2 minutes is a good minimum level for pasteurising (although dairy paseurisation is quicker than this) - the hotter temps require less times, the longer times require less heat. However some microflora are heat resistant and may require multiple doses over a few days or some other method. Steam can be used to sterilise/sanitise too.

There's a couple of files attached at the end in regards to pasteurisation temperatures and time. Google pasteurisation temperature time and you will get more - stuff from the USFDA etc.

Beer (not wort) has a pH level that is unfriendly to most microbes and allegedly all microbes that cause disease in humans. The alcohol level and hops help with some microbial resistance too but wiping beer on a needle wouldn't give enough alc% to replace ethanol wipes. This article (specifially related to beer) suggests around 70% ethyl alcohol is good. Different alcohols have better sanitising properties but may have limited use due to other qualities (toxicity etc): http://www.shroomery.org/8431/A-Complete-G...-and-Sanitation Also has heat vs time comparisons.

A Healthy yeast culture will help resist dominance from other microbes but is certainly no replacement for cleanliness and good sanitiation. As you understand the difference between sanitation and sterilisation, you will also understand that you are merely reducing the risk of microbial contamination and subsequent flavour impact with everything you do. Therefore the more short cuts, the more risks etc. You find the level that works for you and your brewing.

Most people use a sanitiser that works by pH (either basic like chlorine or acidic like starsan) or by oxidation like iodophor or sodium metabisulphite. Starsan uses phosphoric acid as its active ingredient, iodophor is an iodine solution.

As for the search function - you will find much better success if you use the google search bar just above the 'default forum search' bar when you click seacrh.

Unless you type in the right syntax etc, the default bar is renowned to return poor results.
Thanks for that Manticle. Just the kind of information I was looking for.

Thanks also to the others who added advice.

I use the idophor that came with my starter kit for most things and will be buying the starsan once it becomes available again. I've seen the starsan in action and like the way it can be reused if stored correctly.
My confusion about sanitation stems from the huge amount of conflicting information floating arund out there. Some are totally anal while I've seen a guy who just uses a hose and a spell in the sun.
My personal experience so far has been to sanitise the crap out of everything just in case but after 7 batches I've stopped needing to check the instructions so much and started to look more closely at refining the method itself.
The first thing I started to see was all the potential threats to sanitation. Something like dry hopping the pellets straight in the fermenter should by all means be a sure fire way to infection but so far it seems to be fine. The same with adding the sugar to each bottle although the PH thing you mentioned is making sense.

I guess I won't truly get it until my shortcuts eventually bite me in the arse and I have a batch go bad. Nobody likes to see beer go to waste.

Again, Thanks for the help.
 

stux

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There are two sides to the beer making process, the hot side and the cold side.

Everything on the cold side needs anal sanitation. Everything on the hot side, doesn't really.

The only confusion is at the border... ie when transferring at flameout to fermenter, then everything after flameout needs sanitation too... so your transfer hose, chiller, tap, etc.
 

bugeater

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Beerisyummy

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There are two sides to the beer making process, the hot side and the cold side.

Everything on the cold side needs anal sanitation. Everything on the hot side, doesn't really.

The only confusion is at the border... ie when transferring at flameout to fermenter, then everything after flameout needs sanitation too... so your transfer hose, chiller, tap, etc.

Hi Stux,
That's the kind of comment that has me confused. I understand the logic behind it but can't understand the actual practice.

All of the kit and kilo brews I've done so far have used water straight from my RO/DI unit without any sort of heating. It doesn't taste or smell infected (yet) so it got me wondering.


Cheers.
 

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