First Small Batch Ag. Confused About Sanitation Recommendations.

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70% ethanol is pretty standard when working in a medical lab. There are spray bottles of it everywhere and you regularly wipe your work area down with it.

Thanks Bugeater,

I think I should have asked the question in a dfferent way although it's good to know. I was more interested in why my brews are not getting infected due to the large number of gaps in the sanitation system. I was thinking more along the lines of how much ABV in the wort ( during fermentation) played a part. Manticle's coment on PH gave me the leg up I needed.

Cheers.
 
Hi Stux,
That's the kind of comment that has me confused. I understand the logic behind it but can't understand the actual practice.

All of the kit and kilo brews I've done so far have used water straight from my RO/DI unit without any sort of heating. It doesn't taste or smell infected (yet) so it got me wondering.


Cheers.

Anything before/during the boil doesn't need sanitising because the boiling does this for you. Anything after the boil (spoon, fermenter etc...) needs to be sanitised. Doing kit beers, you don't need to worry about "the boil", so everything needs to be sanitised.

A lot of people have got away without sanitising, but it's not worth the risk considering how easy it is, especially with starsan. Hope that clears it up a little. :)
 
Anything before/during the boil doesn't need sanitising because the boiling does this for you. Anything after the boil (spoon, fermenter etc...) needs to be sanitised. Doing kit beers, you don't need to worry about "the boil", so everything needs to be sanitised.

A lot of people have got away without sanitising, but it's not worth the risk considering how easy it is, especially with starsan. Hope that clears it up a little. :)

Hi Wbosher, I could take a famous quote from one of the the fish nerds ,who's books i've read, that fits the bill.
"Not using quarrantine is like playing Russian roulette. In the end nobody wins". EB.
I agree totally with the idea behind that quote but found the methods to get there were flawed in many ways. Most of them only limited contamination and most of the time that's enough. I'm just one of those people that likes to look into the little details.
I promise that I've been sanitizing the hell out of everything. It just seems odd that adding 20 or so liters of unsanitised water and breathing all over things seems to be OK.

It's probably not worth me thinking about it too much for now. If the beer would hurry up in the fermenters I could be doing another batch instead. :p

Thanks for taking the time out to help a newbie out guys. :beer:
 
Hi Wbosher, I could take a famous quote from one of the the fish nerds ,who's books i've read, that fits the bill.
"Not using quarrantine is like playing Russian roulette. In the end nobody wins". EB.
I agree totally with the idea behind that quote but found the methods to get there were flawed in many ways. Most of them only limited contamination and most of the time that's enough. I'm just one of those people that likes to look into the little details.
I promise that I've been sanitizing the hell out of everything. It just seems odd that adding 20 or so liters of unsanitised water and breathing all over things seems to be OK.

It's probably not worth me thinking about it too much for now. If the beer would hurry up in the fermenters I could be doing another batch instead. :p

Thanks for taking the time out to help a newbie out guys. :beer:

Your never gonna get rid of all of the nasties, unless your brewing in a sterile lab environment, which I'm pretty sure most of us aren't. The aim is to minimise it as much as possible.

I'm still a newbie myself, only done five brews now, but learning a little more after each one. I used bleach when I first started, that was a real PITA, until the guys here put me on to starsan. Now it's so easy I sanitise the hell out of everything, even things like the scissors that I cut the yeast pack with (and the yeast pack itself). Probably not necessary, but only takes a few squirts from a spray bottle seems silly not to.
 
Thanks for that Manticle. Just the kind of information I was looking for.

Thanks also to the others who added advice.

I use the idophor that came with my starter kit for most things and will be buying the starsan once it becomes available again. I've seen the starsan in action and like the way it can be reused if stored correctly.
My confusion about sanitation stems from the huge amount of conflicting information floating arund out there. Some are totally anal while I've seen a guy who just uses a hose and a spell in the sun.
My personal experience so far has been to sanitise the crap out of everything just in case but after 7 batches I've stopped needing to check the instructions so much and started to look more closely at refining the method itself.
The first thing I started to see was all the potential threats to sanitation. Something like dry hopping the pellets straight in the fermenter should by all means be a sure fire way to infection but so far it seems to be fine. The same with adding the sugar to each bottle although the PH thing you mentioned is making sense.

I guess I won't truly get it until my shortcuts eventually bite me in the arse and I have a batch go bad. Nobody likes to see beer go to waste.

Again, Thanks for the help.


BIY, if you want to see my shortcuts then have a long at the thread titled "bugger" in kits and partials. I'm still topping up with cold tap water too so I can see your point. I guess if everything else is minimized to the point of insignificance then the yeast has a fighting chance of overcoming any critters in the tapwater. Here in Melbourne the tap water is of a very high quality so that must help me.
Interesting comments on the strengths of starsan. I have only gust started using it as an easy addition to my usual routine but I think I'm overdoing it. I have a 3 % hydrogen peroxide solution from Beer Essentials and it recommends 30ml in a litre for no rinse. Where can I get a stronger solution for less money?

Don't want to hijack the thread but any PMs regarding how long to ferment a quick and dirty Aldi apple juice and ale yeast cider would be welcome. I'm well over trawling through endless threads on cider with what must be the worst search function in the history of the internet (I love the site otherwise admin - truly).
 
I have a 3 % hydrogen peroxide solution from Beer Essentials and it recommends 30ml in a litre for no rinse. Where can I get a stronger solution for less money?

Why do you want a stronger solution? I have never heard of the product you are using, so i have no idea if that is already "strong" or not, but my advice would be that if it recommends using 30ml per litre, then use 30ml per litre. If you want a stronger solution, then it would not be no rinse anymore, then you'd have to rinse it again, completely undoing all your good work by using it in the first place. Your water supply will still have bugs/micro-organisms in it.

The recommendation of dosage rates for chemicals are there for a reason.

Now, if you'd said, where can i get this or a similar product cheaper without it sounding like you want to change the dosage rate, then that'd be different.

BTW, isn't Hydrogen Peroxide a bleach? I had a feeling it is...

If so, then 30ml per litre sounds about right to me. Not 100% sure on that though, as i said i don't use it in my brewery.

EDIT: Actually on second thought.... If it is a bleach, isn't the dosage rate closer to a capful for a fermenter??? That sounds a bit better to me now that i think about it.

Have left both dosage rates in my post so someone can clearly identify through a reply, which is actually correct (or more correct).
 
sounds like he means stronger solution to use less neat sanitiser to make the same concentration of mixed sanitiser

for what its worth, get a bottle of starsan or iodophor.. i bought a bottle of each well over 12 months ago and still have over half of each left

i like to swap between iodophor/starsan now and then so bugs dont build a resistance i also find iodophor better for kegs since you end up with a keg full of foam from starsan and cant see the fill level when racking
sure you can use a spray bottle to knock the bubbles down but with that much foam in the keg the last thing i want is to squirt more in there
 
sounds like he means stronger solution to use less neat sanitiser to make the same concentration of mixed sanitiser

yeah but the product isn't a solution if it's "neat".

Doesn't it only become a solution once "product A" is added to water?
 
a 3% solution of hydrogen peroxide has to already be in solution with 97% of something else :)
 
facepalm_500x400.jpg

please excuse my dickheadedness... :D
 
Why do you want a stronger solution? I have never heard of the product you are using, so i have no idea if that is already "strong" or not, but my advice would be that if it recommends using 30ml per litre, then use 30ml per litre. If you want a stronger solution, then it would not be no rinse anymore, then you'd have to rinse it again, completely undoing all your good work by using it in the first place. Your water supply will still have bugs/micro-organisms in it.

The recommendation of dosage rates for chemicals are there for a reason.

Now, if you'd said, where can i get this or a similar product cheaper without it sounding like you want to change the dosage rate, then that'd be different.

BTW, isn't Hydrogen Peroxide a bleach? I had a feeling it is...

If so, then 30ml per litre sounds about right to me. Not 100% sure on that though, as i said i don't use it in my brewery.

EDIT: Actually on second thought.... If it is a bleach, isn't the dosage rate closer to a capful for a fermenter??? That sounds a bit better to me now that i think about it.

Have left both dosage rates in my post so someone can clearly identify through a reply, which is actually correct (or more correct).

Hey there BigNath,

I have used hydrogen peroxide several times to rid fish of parasitic infections that most other treatments can't come close to. It is a great oxidizer that will become inert after it's done it's job.
Unlike household bleach that will leave a residue, the hydrogen peroxide will not need rinsing if used correctly.
I'd need to go through some of my old notes on dosage rates to remember what sort of concentrations will happily kill protozoans burried under the skin of fish. If it can do that at those rates without killing a fish left in the solution for an hour, I'd have it a guess that the solution would work extremely well as a contact sanitiser. Even in very low dilution rates.

The biggest drawback to using an oxidiser like this is that it will do the same thing to anything it comes into contact with. This includes any clothing, skin and hair.
I have just used it straight out of the bottle on a cloth to wipe down containers. Leave it for a few minutes then hey presto. Parisite free container.

I know it's not ideal for brewing use.
 
sounds like he means stronger solution to use less neat sanitiser to make the same concentration of mixed sanitiser

for what its worth, get a bottle of starsan or iodophor.. i bought a bottle of each well over 12 months ago and still have over half of each left

i like to swap between iodophor/starsan now and then so bugs dont build a resistance i also find iodophor better for kegs since you end up with a keg full of foam from starsan and cant see the fill level when racking
sure you can use a spray bottle to knock the bubbles down but with that much foam in the keg the last thing i want is to squirt more in there

Thank you tonesbrew, you have arrived the correct interpretation of my post. Cheers for clearing that up.
What I have done is I have assumed that the hydrogen peroxide I am using is the same active ingredient in Starsan. It seems I have made an error. Can anyone confirm?
 
Thank you tonesbrew, you have arrived the correct interpretation of my post. Cheers for clearing that up.
What I have done is I have assumed that the hydrogen peroxide I am using is the same active ingredient in Starsan. It seems I have made an error. Can anyone confirm?


Hi 431neb,
While I'm not familiar with the use of Starsan just yet I can tell you it's a different substance. Hydrogen peroxide is not the same as phosphoric acid as far as I know.

Hydrogen peroxide ends up as water and oxygen once it's oxidised the shit out of any nasties. I looked up those dosage rates and the solution I was using was 75ppm, or 5ml of 3% per 2 liters of water. 30 minutes contact time. That was enough to oxidise the cell walls of parasites buried under the skin that are a fair bit hardier than beer nasties.
That's my understanding anyway. Maybe some of the beer nerds know of some bad ass "super" beer nasties, but I'd think most infections are pretty easy to kill.
If there are I'd love to know more.


Edit: I just read the post you mentioned in the other thread. Nice breakdown of the actual proccess used and why it would help to minimise infections.

I also liked another comment made that "good cleaning is 99% of sanitation".

PS. I just noticed the comment about Melbournes water being clean. It still tastes like shit though. :eek:
 
Hi 431neb,
While I'm not familiar with the use of Starsan just yet I can tell you it's a different substance. Hydrogen peroxide is not the same as phosphoric acid as far as I know.

Hydrogen peroxide ends up as water and oxygen once it's oxidised the shit out of any nasties. I looked up those dosage rates and the solution I was using was 75ppm, or 5ml of 3% per 2 liters of water. 30 minutes contact time. That was enough to oxidise the cell walls of parasites buried under the skin that are a fair bit hardier than beer nasties.
That's my understanding anyway. Maybe some of the beer nerds know of some bad ass "super" beer nasties, but I'd think most infections are pretty easy to kill.
If there are I'd love to know more.


Edit: I just read the post you mentioned in the other thread. Nice breakdown of the actual proccess used and why it would help to minimise infections.

I also liked another comment made that "good cleaning is 99% of sanitation".

PS. I just noticed the comment about Melbournes water being clean. It still tastes like shit though. :eek:

Tonesbrew, BIY, thanks. I'll look into some of these products cheers.
BIY, Melbourne water might taste that way because of another cheap sanitiser - chlorine. Probably the same reason it's fairly clean ( from a pathogen point of view).
Pretty sure that Phosphoric acid is what the old man uses to clean salt chlorination cells. He has a pool maintenance business. I'm not recommending anyone use that product for brewing, i just find it interesting.
Bottled half my Aldi cider today. It tastes OK. It certainly won't get wasted.
 
Ross,

I can let you have half of my stock of StarSan when I come down on 3 Dec. We'll talk about the whole process then too, if you like.
I prefer StarSan to Iodophor, having used both. Starsan just requires contact at room temperature for about a minute or two. Just a spray to wet all the surface is sufficient, so need to totally drown everything. Then just drain quickly, no need to rinse, and any residual won't do any harm or be evident in the beer. Mix it 1.5 mil to 1 litre of water, and you're ready to go.

Your wort is sanitised by the boil.

It's not really that complicated. Cleanliness is next to godliness, so proper cleaning gets you about 99% of the way there, as already mentioned.
Sanitising is just the insurance on top of it, to take care of the last 1% chance of an infection.

Once you pitch your yeast in a batch, in proper conditions, it will usually outsprint any nasties, and when fermenting, the alcohol will help to inhibit any others.

Hops seem to have inherent anti nasty properties. Nobody ever got an infection from dry hopping. I regularly just chuck the pellets into the fermenter, and it's never been a problem.

Rob.
 
Tonesbrew, BIY, thanks. I'll look into some of these products cheers.
BIY, Melbourne water might taste that way because of another cheap sanitiser - chlorine. Probably the same reason it's fairly clean ( from a pathogen point of view).
Pretty sure that Phosphoric acid is what the old man uses to clean salt chlorination cells. He has a pool maintenance business. I'm not recommending anyone use that product for brewing, i just find it interesting.
Bottled half my Aldi cider today. It tastes OK. It certainly won't get wasted.

It's funny that you mention pool chemicals. I've been experimenting with them for years as a readily available substitute for many commercial reef tank additives. Some work fine but the dissadvantage is that there are less controls in place compared to food or labaratory grade. Most of the time they are just fine but it makes more sense to just organise a bulk lab/food grade chemical buy from a supplier.
Apart from that there is no reason why a person can't make up their own sanitiser from scratch. Just make sure you understand the constituents and related dangers first otherwise you could do some real damage.
I haven't read enough of the threads on here to see if the locals are already doing so but it seems most people are happy to pay for the commercial products as they are offered. At least it keeps the LHBSs in business.

Aldi cider eh, I'll have a looksee as my brother just got the bug and has a request for a cider from SWMBO.

Cheers.


PS. It's not the chlorine that makes Melbourne water taste bad. I've lived in a few states and have been all over.
The funny thing with tap water is that the older the system, the better it seems to taste. Local collection sites aside, an old water main comes out of the ground with a huge amount of growth inside it. It's sometimes so thick with growth that you wonder how water manages to get past.
Also, Chloromine tends to be the drug of choice for most water boards now days. Much more stable and harder to get rid of over time.
 
Ross,

I can let you have half of my stock of StarSan when I come down on 3 Dec. We'll talk about the whole process then too, if you like.
I prefer StarSan to Iodophor, having used both. Starsan just requires contact at room temperature for about a minute or two. Just a spray to wet all the surface is sufficient, so need to totally drown everything. Then just drain quickly, no need to rinse, and any residual won't do any harm or be evident in the beer. Mix it 1.5 mil to 1 litre of water, and you're ready to go.

Your wort is sanitised by the boil.

It's not really that complicated. Cleanliness is next to godliness, so proper cleaning gets you about 99% of the way there, as already mentioned.
Sanitising is just the insurance on top of it, to take care of the last 1% chance of an infection.

Once you pitch your yeast in a batch, in proper conditions, it will usually outsprint any nasties, and when fermenting, the alcohol will help to inhibit any others.

Hops seem to have inherent anti nasty properties. Nobody ever got an infection from dry hopping. I regularly just chuck the pellets into the fermenter, and it's never been a problem.

Rob.

Thanks Rob,

I'm sure I'll have lots of q's by then. Just make sure you bring a couple of beers down as I'll still be embarassed about mine.

It's pretty unbelievable that the shops have no Starsan in the whole of Aus right now.
The sanitation thing isn't really something I'm finding daunting, it's just something that I'm interested in. It goes hand in hand with my fascination with yeast.
At the end of the day all I'm trying to do right now is keep the yeast happy. Yeast=SWMBO-AATWF( at all times without fail).

I never realised how big a part it plays in everyday life.
 
If I were to go back to making a kit brew, I would like to use a food grade hydrogen peroxide to sanitise the water for the brew prior to mixing. The other effect being that you would have very a oxygen rich environment for yeast once it has degraded.

I would have thought it was harder to ship an oxidising agent like this, but apparently it is easy.
http://compare.ebay.com.au/like/2807067413...dPriceItemTypes
 
If I were to go back to making a kit brew, I would like to use a food grade hydrogen peroxide to sanitise the water for the brew prior to mixing. The other effect being that you would have very a oxygen rich environment for yeast once it has degraded.

I would have thought it was harder to ship an oxidising agent like this, but apparently it is easy.
http://compare.ebay.com.au/like/2807067413...dPriceItemTypes

Don't be fooled into buying things from Ebay that say they ship to your location. They will often be confiscated/returned by customs or carriers if they don't meet the criteria. Most container ship postage will take just about anything in the right packaging if you don't mind waiting for the ship and the half arsed sorting proccess.
You can look up the rules on their websites if you can be arsed. Easier to find a supplier locally IMO.
Starsan is going to be my weapon of choice once it's available. The Idophor is still going strong in the meantime.

On a side note, I'm sure I've asked before, but does Starsan damage fabrics or any other household items?

PS. Totally forgot what I was going to say about using H2O2 in water. Yes, it will oxidise the hell out the water which is a good thing, but how are you going to know when it's OK to add the yeast? H2O2 will kill the yeast at very low concentrations.
The first batch of beer(FV) I tried to chill, I stuck a sponge with some H202 in the top of the airlock. If any of it made it inside of the FV it would oxidise pretty quickly due to the nature of the wort ( I hoped).
I'd think that using it to sterilise water would possibly wipe out the yeast when you added it to the K&K concentrate.
I do like where you're coming from though. I'm new to the brewing game so it's all a bit like working out how to use an old Nokia, without any instructions or idea of how it works. "Options" press that one and then try all the differnt possibilities until you understand the capabilities of the phone.

Cheers

Ross.
 
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