Fire sprinkler head as wort return?

[philistine]

I just had this idea of using an overhead fire sprinkler nozzle as a wort recirc/return in a mash tun...
Has anyone tried it?

I reckon it'd be rad

having a hard time finding stainless ones though - at least at a decent price and/or in quantities of less than a bazillion....

I've also seen these siphon spray plastic nozzles.... Does anyone have or know of a decent SS substitute for one of these?

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

You could be onto something there

 

[nosco]

Theres a American 1v brew machine on youtube that uses one. I cant remember the name of it sorry.

 

[Bridges]

I'd often wondered about using one of these, not that I have mind you.

 

[philistine]

yeah same! I just cant figure out exactly what kind of spray they throw out........
The fire sprinklers kinda throw out a dribbly circular curtain of sorts (i had a real hard time trying to think of a way to describe that btw) which I reckon would be ideal for the purpose...
But yeah, im serisouyl thining about getting one of the ones in you link to try it out

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

For a wort return is a "spray" a bad idea?

 

[technobabble66]

^+1.
I'd be concerned with the risk of HSA (Hot Side Aeration) when using a sprayer in the mash tun.
It would definitely be a concern for wort return, but even for spraying in sparge water it might still be an issue. At mash temps (~60-80°C) you're pretty much bang on the range that, in theory, is ideal for creating the initial oxidising reactions that result in HSA flaws later on in the finished beer - IE: oxygen can still dissolve into the wort to a sufficient extent, and the moderately high temperature results in a reasonable reaction rate. I'd assume using a spray head is about the best way to oxygenate a liquid short of pumping O2 into it, so it seems like a bad idea in a MLT.
Happy to be proven wrong, however i'd be staying well away from it for wort/sparge return.
(it's a pity, as it's a great way to get nice even liquid dispersal across the top of the grain bed)

 

[Tony121]

^+1.
I'd be concerned with the risk of HSA (Hot Side Aeration) when using a sprayer in the mash tun.
It would definitely be a concern for wort return, but even for spraying in sparge water it might still be an issue. At mash temps (~60-80°C) you're pretty much bang on the range that, in theory, is ideal for creating the initial oxidising reactions that result in HSA flaws later on in the finished beer - IE: oxygen can still dissolve into the wort to a sufficient extent, and the moderately high temperature results in a reasonable reaction rate. I'd assume using a spray head is about the best way to oxygenate a liquid short of pumping O2 into it, so it seems like a bad idea in a MLT.
Happy to be proven wrong, however i'd be staying well away from it for wort/sparge return.
(it's a pity, as it's a great way to get nice even liquid dispersal across the top of the grain bed)

What if it is submerged?

 

[technobabble66]

If it's under the liquid surface, and isn't creating vortex aeration etc, then should be fine.
Might be a great idea in that case.
... All depends on whether you then start digging out the grain bed, now that the momentum of the liquid is not being dispersed at the surface.

 

[SBOB]

What if it is submerged?

or what if HSA is just a myth

 

[Tony121]

 

[MHB]

HSA isn't a myth, it causes a measurable effects. The question is whether or not that bothers you enough for you to take steps to avoid/reduce those effects in your beer. Admittedly the results of HSA are more obvious as the beer ages, so if you are making drink ASAP beer it probably isn't of major concern - but it is still real!

The problem with most any sort of spray device is that they are all designed for high flow or high pressure, neither of which states are readily available to a wort return where the return volume is severely limited by/to how much wort you can get to go through the grain bed without pulling the bed down so tight it sets like cement.
There are lots of better ways to achieve a good even distribution of the wort over the grain bed, without spending money on equipment that wont work or even increases the harm done by O2 uptake.
Mark

Tony121 - very lateral...

 

[technobabble66]

or what if HSA is just a myth

Lol.
That's why I was saying it's "a concern" rather than breaking a law of thermodynamics etc; and just that I personally wouldn't do it.
It's always up to the brewer to decide if they're going to bother minimizing HSA (as with many brewing issues [emoji57]), given there used to be so much paranoia about it in previous years that now seems to be blown a bit out of proportion.
Personally, I think it's pretty safe to trust the beer/food science as correct in it's fundamentals. There seems to me to definitely be legitimate concern with oxidation chemistry in brewing. Having said that, there also appears to be certain times where it's particularly relevant and other times where it's not. I think the excessive concern around it in years past was borne from only partial understanding of the chemistry involved and misunderstanding exactly *when* it's a risk.

Also, it's perhaps a bit style & circumstances dependent.
If I was brewing a lager/Pilsner or a very hops-driven beer &/or I wanted to savour it over 6-12 months I'd be thinking about minimizing HSA. If I was brewing an ESB to smash in the next month, I'd probably not care too much about it.
To be fair, oxygen exposure at packaging could probably have a much greater impact in staling the beer.

It's all about understanding the consequences of the corners you're choosing to cut and weighing up the individual and collective risks. [emoji6]

Edit: MHB beat me to it.

 

[Tony121]

I am still very much a novice and wouldn't know how much of an issue HSA can be, I was just dicking around.

Though I do know that MHB is certainly correct in regards to the need for high flow/pressure if wanting to use a sprinkler head or spray nozzle/ball, they simply won't work very well without it.

 

[MHB]

Tony, I thought it was quite clever and enjoyed it.
The problem is that there are so many effects on beer through the production process that we cant fully address all of them, there will always be compromises.
On HSA just taking basic steps to reduce unnecessary O2 uptake is probably all most brewers need to do. I have taken to using a small addition of Metabisulphite in my water, it removes both Chlorine and Oxygen, then exercise reasonable care not to pick up more than I can avoid.
Returns under the surface or from the bottom of tanks where applicable, avoid splashing or vortexes... but I wouldn't get into a panty bunch about HSA, just be sensible.
Mark

 

[philistine]

we're talking about HSA pre-boil here.... I was under the impression HSA that DAMAGETH THINE BEER is that which occurs post-mash & post-boil....?

 

[MHB]

Then you were under a misapprehension. Oxygen uptake and damage can start as soon as malt is milled, during storage, during mashing, boiling, in the whirlpool, during transfer and even in the stored wort if you are no-chilling...
And there is plenty of ways Oxygen can harm beer during and after fermentation and packaging to.
There is also a clue in the name Hot Side Aeration, implicit being hot, but in brewing terms more fully everything before the wort is chilled and the yeast is pitched.
Mark

 

[Benn]

An interesting listen, Fermentation Nation #43 "Low Oxygen Brewing" (Podcast)
A light discussion on LoDO brewing technique that encompasses a lot of what's mentioned in the above posts.

 

[Camo6]

I imagine fire sprinkler systems are under considerable pressure to achieve the field of effect around the nozzles. I had a quick squiz at a box of them the fire blokes had lying about and the distance between the outlet and the deflector was significant. Not sure how they'd go with a low pressure pump drawing through a bed of grain.

 

[barls]

from memory on a dry system aka no glass to be broken it was around 2 bar pressure. and a wet system was around 1 bar pressure.
saying that its been a long time since i worked on sprinklers.