Filtering - The Real Cost?

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So what is CC'ing and other additives doing?

Hmm, stripping/dropping **** from the beer to make it clearer and taste better? Sorry, am I wrong?

So, rather to let all that take its course, you can force its hand and filter it out in a pass -is this not the same?

Not being smart, asking.

The various finings used are based on electrostatic attraction. Targeted fining.

Filters are based on size and as such have no selection other than that based on the size of the particle.

So yes you are wrong but it is a very good question which is quite rare for this forum :icon_cheers:
 
And it depends very much on the style as well. For example many UK keg beers were filtered in the 1960s, then kegged in gas-serving kegs and sent to the trade. When I lived in Cardiff there was a very pleasant real ale called "Hancock's HB" which was my favourite at lunch with a cheese and onion roll. Served from the cask. The filtered and kegged version was called "Allbright" and was sort of the XXXX Gold of that city in that era, the tradies and steelworkers' drink.

Chalk and cheese, absolute chalk and cheese.
 
The various finings used are based on electrostatic attraction. Targeted fining.

Filters are based on size and as such have no selection other than that based on the size of the particle.

So yes you are wrong but it is a very good question which is quite rare for this forum :icon_cheers:

So you have used everything except a filter, fining, polycar whatever, and you have a 'BRIGHT' beer, what would be in there that the filter removed?

Again, not being smart.
 
So you have used everything except a filter, fining, polycar whatever, and you have a 'BRIGHT' beer, what would be in there that the filter removed?

Again, not being smart.

I don't know the answer to that.

A filtered beer seems to shine/sparkle, something i have not seen in an unfiltered beer.

Molecules that don't have a charge won't be removed by finings. Possibly hop resins.
 
If you haven't used filter, polyclar and fining, what's left? Cold and time and gravity?

That's all I use and I would say my beers are clear (sometimes very clear and clear enough for me) but never bright. I care not since some of my favourite beers in the world are all bottle conditioned and never bright but I know the difference when I look at a commercial filtered pilsner.


What I believe the Doc is saying though is that the principles on which various substances are removed from the beer, differ with the method. Different methods may mean different results - I'll let Dr S explain the science in layman's terms on accout of him being a better scientist.
 
Different particles will drop at different rates. In general, heavy/big particles drop more quickly than light/small ones. Confounding this, at lower temperatures, some things (e.g. some proteins) stick together and go from being light/small to heavy/big. Also at lower temperature, there is less thermal motion in the beer, so things drop more quickly anyway.

Without doing a rigorous experiment (I don't have a GC-MS machine), I speculate that cold conditioning may leave some things that don't stick together and drop out that might get caught by a filter, but I note that this is speculation only.

T.
 
If you haven't used filter, polyclar and fining, what's left? Cold and time and gravity?

That's all I use and I would say my beers are clear (sometimes very clear and clear enough for me) but never bright. I care not since some of my favourite beers in the world are all bottle conditioned and never bright but I know the difference when I look at a commercial filtered pilsner.


What I believe the Doc is saying though is that the principles on which various substances are removed from the beer, differ with the method. Different methods may mean different results - I'll let Dr S explain the science in layman's terms on accout of him being a better scientist.

By all means, not arguing in any way clearing beer is better than the next and agree with you mants, if you use nothing and have a clear beer or even a muddy beer - its your beer to enjoy... each to their own.

One of my favorite things I have ever read on this forum, and I wish I could say by who and where but I can't, was the phrase:

"I brew beer for me" - whoever, whenever.. 203930

Agreed again, the Dr. IS saying, different stroke for different folks....

As am I...

Sorry OP

Back to 'If filtered beer is best' :p
 
Hello Bribie,
What is your method for getting your beer so clear and bright? Do you gelatine, Polyclar and Brewbrite.
Cheers

The beer in question had BrewBright at the end of the boil. Fermented as a lager using Hella Bock yeast, then racked to a secondary "cube" and held at -1 for a couple of weeks (heresy for a German Style Lager but I needed the fridge) :rolleyes:

Kegged, and the keg put in my "waiting fridge" for a couple more weeks, then into the keggo and started serving last week.

No gelatine on this occasion as I knew it was going to get a couple of good rests before serving.
 
in the posted picture my beer was in fact ice cold, the fermenter was at negative 1 before i filtered it. it was however not carbonated. mind you - i've not noticed that dissolved co2 makes a beer cloudy.

anyway - i have no interest in the filter or dont filter debate, its been done to death and people can decide for themselves.

As to the OPs whether it costs or saves beer question - I manage to get a bit better use of my beer if i filter. the filter means that you can continue to run to your keg even after gunk starts to come off the yeast cake in the fermenter, either primary or secondary, in fact if i am using (i rarely do) a secondary, then i would probably swirl it up when it was getting close to empty and run every last drop out of it. so you probably get to use maybe 500-1000ml of beer that otherwise you (or i at least) would leave behind.

beer loss in the filter - less than 250ml. Two ways to recover almost all of it.

Note - my filter and keg are completely filled with CO2, i dont purge, i have a keg filled with sanitiser and i push the sanitiser out of the keg, through the filter with C02 - so the air is fully displaced. purging isn't effective enough for me and C02 "blankets" are the product of over active imaginations.

The first stuff that comes out of the filter is fine and oxygen free, goes to keg - no waste.

Option 1 - If you need all the beer in there to fill your keg - At the end, when your fermenter is empty, before any air gets in the line, detach the tube from the fermenter and hook it up to a C02 source, push the last beer out of the filter with C02. Lose only a couple of hundred ml tops.

Option 2 - If you have a little spare volume - just turn the filter upside down and let it drain by gravity.... which will bubble air through the beer, mixing oxygen, so you dont want that in your keg. I put it into a PET bottle, where you can

a} bung in a spoon of sugar, naturally carbonate it and see for yourself, every batch you make, whether the "alive and natuarlly carbonated is better" argument holds up

b} screw on a carbonator cap, whack some gas onto that puppy, shake the **** out of it and reward yourself for your efforts with a virtually instant sample of your brew. or at least drink it first before the oxygen can do its evil work.

So for me, filtering wastes only about 200-250ml and gives me a net result of probably a litre or so of extra drinkable beer per batch vs finings/cc. I suspect that if i fined all the time i could refine the process and make it comparably efficient to filtering.... but i dont see that i could make it better without being willing to drink some cloudy beer.
 
I filterd a keg once - beautifully clear and bright, then stored it at room temp. Must have has a point or two of gravity left to drop ... bloody yeast were active again and cloudied the frekin thing up again!
 
I filterd a keg once - beautifully clear and bright, then stored it at room temp. Must have has a point or two of gravity left to drop ... bloody yeast were active again and cloudied the frekin thing up again!


A little tip! Maybe not active yeast....... If you used Starsan or simlilar to clean your cartridge & used it while still wet, the residue of sanitiser can react with your beer & turn it hazy by the following day.


Cheers Ross
 
A little tip! Maybe not active yeast....... If you used Starsan or simlilar to clean your cartridge & used it while still wet, the residue of sanitiser can react with your beer & turn it hazy by the following day.


Cheers Ross

I flush the sanitised filter IN and OUT with a few liters. How much starsan would there need to be? All other times I've filtered it's been fine - as long as I cool the keg straight away.

Although there is a chance I forgot to flush the filter that time.
 
A little tip! Maybe not active yeast....... If you used Starsan or simlilar to clean your cartridge & used it while still wet, the residue of sanitiser can react with your beer & turn it hazy by the following day.


Cheers Ross


do you get the same effect just using starsan to clean the keg, leave in the no-rinse dregs and then have cloudy beer (from the star san) ?

not that i filter or care that much about clear & bright beer
 
Not sure Nick, but we had a staff member here that we used to take the mick out of all the time because his filtered beers were always hazy.
He swore they were perfect the day before when first filtered. Watching his technique of flushing with Starsan & then straight into filtering, it was my guess that the starsan was reacting with the beer.
We than filtered after giving the cartridges a rinse in water & the problem was resolved.

Cheers Ross

I personally let the cartridge dry over night before filtering - Try weiging one dry & then wet, you'lll be surprised how much liquid they hold.
 
do you get the same effect just using starsan to clean the keg, leave in the no-rinse dregs and then have cloudy beer (from the star san) ?

not that i filter or care that much about clear & bright beer

No, the residue is miniscule.

cheers Ross
 
I personally let the cartridge dry over night before filtering.

I've always been a bit nervous about doing that. A damp filter drying would be like an agar plate to a critter.

Then again, the whole filtering business is a bit of a sanitisation compromise saved by the pH and alcohol in the beer I guess. I reckon you could filter cooled wort through a "cleaned" used filter to innoculate it.
 
i've had that happen if you leave the filter cartridge wringing wet with starsan, but you dont need to let it completely dry out to avoid it, just sanitise the filter first and let it drain while you set everything else up, by then most of the liquid will have drained out and you can just blow it out of the cartridge with the last of the pressure in your keg.That seems to be enough to avoid the potential for cloudiness. If you're organised enough to sanitise the day before then the filter drains pretty much completely and its a non issue.
 
i've had that happen if you leave the filter cartridge wringing wet with starsan, but you dont need to let it completely dry out to avoid it, just sanitise the filter first and let it drain while you set everything else up, by then most of the liquid will have drained out and you can just blow it out of the cartridge with the last of the pressure in your keg.That seems to be enough to avoid the potential for cloudiness. If you're organised enough to sanitise the day before then the filter drains pretty much completely and its a non issue.

does starsan remain capable of killing nasties after it has been administered to a filter even though it has dried? the outside parts of the filter cartridge are surely going to dry long before the insides are

i just plead ignorance, give it a decent wash in hot water then filter straight away...if there are bugs that can withstand my hot water then i should be dead already. not to mention the alc and c02 points that nick has raised
 
Well, thats partly why i dont advocate letting it dry out, but keeping inside of its housing, in which its been sanitised and which is sealed so bugs of any description aren't able to get at it.

if you are happy with hot water as sanitiser, fair enough, you'll never experience this issue - lots of people aren't happy with hot water as a sanitiser and they might, so its actually pretty handy that Ross mentioned it.
 

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