Fermentation Has Not Begun. What Should I Do?

[bigfridge]

PS: (and slightly off topic) I always thought that CO2 is an odorless gas, and that the smells of fermentation are the esters and phenols produced by the little yeasties

Yes, but when it dissolves in your nostril membranes it forms Carbonic acid which gives you a CO2 prickle.

Back on topic - the yeast is clearly underpitched. Plenty of info here and on Wyeast's website. High gravity wort needs extra yeast and the ideal preparation is to smack, wait for it to swell fully and then make a starter.

It is all on the back of the pack and the website.

HTH,
Dave

 

[atkinsonr]

Back on topic - the yeast is clearly underpitched. Plenty of info here and on Wyeast's website. High gravity wort needs extra yeast and the ideal preparation is to smack, wait for it to swell fully and then make a starter.

It is all on the back of the pack and the website.

HTH,
Dave

OK, understood.

So in the absence of another pack of the same yeast, and given current circumstances, should I add my S04, or should I just be more patient...

thanks

 

[bigfridge]

OK, understood.

So in the absence of another pack of the same yeast, and given current circumstances, should I add my S04, or should I just be more patient...

thanks

Hi,

This depends on how much active yeast was pitched and how good your sanitation is.

If your pack was fresh (ie not older than 3 months) then I would expect that you would see some activty soon as you have been growing your yeast population.

But you will also be growing the nasty bugs. I fear that unless you see some activity soon it may be too late for any yeast to save it ie the bugs would have too much of a foothold.

18 is aslo a bit cool for UK ale yeasts so I would raise the temp up to 20-22 and then drop it back down once it kicks off.

I wouldn't give up on it yet.

David

 

[atkinsonr]

Well fellas, I think you can all take a bow. Just checked in the fridge and the krausen has started, it took 72 hours but it's started.

Smudge and Boston and particularly Dave, I think you all got it bang on - I underpitched.

I think the take aways from this for me are:

1. Smack the smackpack at least a night before pitching.
2. Make sure it is fully swelled before pitching.
3. When making higher gravity beer, definitely make a starter.

Thanks all for the advice and wisdom through the day... I've learned a lot from this.

Cheers
Richy

EDIT: I just read the back of the smackpack. It say's it's good for up to 5 gallons of 1060 wort. I only had about 4 gallons of 1057 wort, but I think I would have been totally fine if I'd left the smack pack time enough to fully swell.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Screwtop is right that if the layer is yeast you have had yeast growth but this aerobic growth does not reduce the gravity. Not until the anaerobic phase will
you see the gravity start to drop. Also you can't smell CO2, it is odourless and colourless.

Sorry - but that is absolutely incorrect. If your gravity has not dropped, you have not had yeast growth.

 

[mika]

Carbon dioxide is a colourless, odorless gas. When inhaled at concentrations much higher than usual atmospheric levels, it can produce a sour taste in the mouth and a stinging sensation in the nose and throat. These effects result from the gas dissolving in the mucous membranes and saliva, forming a weak solution of carbonic acid.

In other words, you'll know when lots of CO2 is about, CO (carbon monoxide) on the other hand, is a bit different.

 

[bigfridge]

EDIT: I just read the back of the smackpack. It say's it's good for up to 5 gallons of 1060 wort. I only had about 4 gallons of 1057 wort, but I think I would have been totally fine if I'd left the smack pack time enough to fully swell.

You need to remember that this is a USA product so 5 gals = 19 litres and the yeast is always very fresh as shops get weekly deliveries from the yeast manufacturers.

However you look at it everything was marginal in this case which was why you saw the long lag time.

 

[Screwtop]

Learn about yeast by making starters Richy. Remember the difference between making a starter and growing yeast. To make an active starter pitch your yeast into some wort and wait for the growth stage to be in full swing before pitching. To grow yeast for future use wait until the attenuative phase has finished.

By watching your starter you can observe the phases of fermentation. A clear container is best so that you can observe the yeast and what happens during the Adaptation/Lag phase and then later in the Primary/Attenuative phase. After pitching yeast adaps to the wort composition, this takes some time prior to beginning the aerobic phase where multiplying/budding occurs, during this phase froth/krausen will form on the surface of the wort. Later during the anaerobic/attenuative phase the krausen falls away and bubbles of Co2 will be seen running up the inside wall of the container. I use a small torch to look through the wort to observe this. Quite often if a large amount of healthy yeast is pitched into a 2L starter very little or no krausen is formed, the yeast almost immediately begin to attenuate the wort.

For a starter what I want is an amount of actively growing yeast already well into the growth phase to add to my wort, this way fermentation kicks off within hours. To grow yeast let the gravity of the wort be your guide. You want the slurry from the bottom to split up for storage for future use. Check the gravity of the starter to see if fermentation is finished, no need to wait for the conditioning phase, chill to drop out the yeast then pour off the beer. The slurry can be stored, split up, and used to make an active starter.

Remember if making a starter, pitch the amount of yeast you would pitch to the full wort, it will be away quickly and you will be sure of the yeasts viability.

Screwy

 

[atkinsonr]

Dave, forgive my maths - 19L, you are absolutely right. One pack of yeast would have been marginal at best.

Screwtop - thanks for taking the time to explain that - I don't think I understood the reason behind starters before, I thought they were just about growing more yeast.

I've printed your post and added to my brewing file. I've never done starters before but I'm definitely going to get that nailed next time around.

Cheers fellas

 

[Thirsty Boy]

what Screwy said is all spot on the money - a bit of confusion occurs because often people mean different things when they use the word starter. You need to know a bit about whats going on to work out what context they are using the word in. My take on it is that the word is commonly used in the three following ways:

Make a starter - A few hours before you plan to pitch, pour your yeast into a relatively small amount of wort (0.5-1.0L) in order to wake it up and get it active before you pitch it into your wort

Make a starter - Grow a bunch of yeast. This is what Jamil is mainly talking about on his site. Growing the correct number of cells to pitch into your wort. I think that this is the most common usage. Its often done in combination with the next version

Make a starter - A combination (what screwtop means) of getting the cell count up and getting the yeast into its active growth phase before it is pitched. Not just waking it up, but deliberately targeting the period when it is in active growth, so that when pitched it is already multiplying and it just keeps on going in the larger amount of wort. As Screwy said, if you pitch a large amount of yeast into a small amount of wort.. it doesn't grow, it just starts to ferment, and thats not how you want it when you pitch it into your beer. Jamil also means this... he is targeting both the right number of cells AND suggests that you pitch them at high krausen if thats practical. Often though his large suggested starter sizes make it impractical and you need to chill it and decant off the beer.

I personally do the "growth" starter aiming for the correct cell count - if its practical I pitch the starter at high krausen, but usually I chill and decant. I get slightly longer lag times as a result because my yeast has to wake up and get itself into growth mode. But there is the right amount of it and its in tip top condition

 

[Fents]

Learn about yeast by making starters Richy. Remember the difference between making a starter and growing yeast. To make an active starter pitch your yeast into some wort and wait for the growth stage to be in full swing before pitching. To grow yeast for future use wait until the attenuative phase has finished.

By watching your starter you can observe the phases of fermentation. A clear container is best so that you can observe the yeast and what happens during the Adaptation/Lag phase and then later in the Primary/Attenuative phase. After pitching yeast adaps to the wort composition, this takes some time prior to beginning the aerobic phase where multiplying/budding occurs, during this phase froth/krausen will form on the surface of the wort. Later during the anaerobic/attenuative phase the krausen falls away and bubbles of Co2 will be seen running up the inside wall of the container. I use a small torch to look through the wort to observe this. Quite often if a large amount of healthy yeast is pitched into a 2L starter very little or no krausen is formed, the yeast almost immediately begin to attenuate the wort.

For a starter what I want is an amount of actively growing yeast already well into the growth phase to add to my wort, this way fermentation kicks off within hours. To grow yeast let the gravity of the wort be your guide. You want the slurry from the bottom to split up for storage for future use. Check the gravity of the starter to see if fermentation is finished, no need to wait for the conditioning phase, chill to drop out the yeast then pour off the beer. The slurry can be stored, split up, and used to make an active starter.

Remember if making a starter, pitch the amount of yeast you would pitch to the full wort, it will be away quickly and you will be sure of the yeasts viability.

Screwy

wealth.of.knowledge.

biggups screwy.

 

[cdbrown]

Make a starter, then make it bigger - use some of it for your brew and the rest can be stored for later use.
Always plan on when your yeast will be ready and make your wort ready for that time. I've got very very limited experience of the smack packs as I've only done two, but both took 24hrs before the pack was very swollen. 3-4 hours on the pack would only be enough for the yeast to begin kicking off and might be an ok time to chuck in a starter.

 

[cubbie]

what Screwy said is all spot on the money - a bit of confusion occurs because often people mean different things when they use the word starter. You need to know a bit about whats going on to work out what context they are using the word in. My take on it is that the word is commonly used in the three following ways:

Make a starter - A few hours before you plan to pitch, pour your yeast into a relatively small amount of wort (0.5-1.0L) in order to wake it up and get it active before you pitch it into your wort

Make a starter - Grow a bunch of yeast. This is what Jamil is mainly talking about on his site. Growing the correct number of cells to pitch into your wort. I think that this is the most common usage. Its often done in combination with the next version

Make a starter - A combination (what screwtop means) of getting the cell count up and getting the yeast into its active growth phase before it is pitched. Not just waking it up, but deliberately targeting the period when it is in active growth, so that when pitched it is already multiplying and it just keeps on going in the larger amount of wort. As Screwy said, if you pitch a large amount of yeast into a small amount of wort.. it doesn't grow, it just starts to ferment, and thats not how you want it when you pitch it into your beer. Jamil also means this... he is targeting both the right number of cells AND suggests that you pitch them at high krausen if thats practical. Often though his large suggested starter sizes make it impractical and you need to chill it and decant off the beer.

I personally do the "growth" starter aiming for the correct cell count - if its practical I pitch the starter at high krausen, but usually I chill and decant. I get slightly longer lag times as a result because my yeast has to wake up and get itself into growth mode. But there is the right amount of it and its in tip top condition

I have always tried to make my starter 2-3 days out before brew day so I guess I am in essence making a growth starter. I often buy an older wyeast so by brew day it can still be in it's active stage however I have recently decided I don't like the thought of pouring my entire starter into the brew as it is a bit stale after 2-3 days (so I try to decant). I guess the way around this is to make the starter earlier allowing time for it to attenuate out so you can decant before pitching into an active starter or straight into your wort.

I pretty much make a 1.5L starter for whatever beer I do and I don't bother chilling before I decant.

 

[Darren]

Sorry - but that is absolutely incorrect. If your gravity has not dropped, you have not had yeast growth.

Thirsty, gravity drop may not always be observed if C02 bubbles are falsely raising the hyrometer. I have seen that many a time, several days into a ferment.

Krausen on top is a sure sign of fermentation.

cheers

Darren

 

[atkinsonr]

After what screwy said this morning, I went and did some reading.

I read Palmers process for yeast starters and then a really interesting faq on the finer points of yeast starters on Mr Malty:

"Even though many brewers are using starters, most still have questions about the "best way" to make and use them. The answers to these questions are not only based on my experience and lab work, but from conversations with David Logsdon, Founder/Owner of Wyeast Laboratories, Inc., Greg Doss, Wyeast Laboratories Microbiologist, and Neva Parker, White Labs Inc. Laboratory Manager. I would also like to thank Graham Sanders for his extensive feedback on this article."

http://www.mrmalty.com/starter_faq.htm

Helped me learn a lot. However, as with most good lessons, it has now lead to more questions.

According to the article, and the pitching rate calculator on Mr Malty, I should have pitched a little over 200 billion yeast cells into my 20L of 1057 SG ale. In other words, 2x smack packs - or a starter designed to produce a 100% increase in yeast cells.

The FAQ discusses volumes of starter, and I understand that to make 200 billion yeast cells from 100 billion, I would should have made 2L of 1040 SG yeast starter.

Does this sound right to you guys? And if so what kind of vessel do you make a 2L starter in?

Thanks once again for all your help and advice.

PS: Krausen on my underpitched 1057 SG now looks splendid:

 

[Screwtop]

After what screwy said this morning, I went and did some reading.

I read Palmers process for yeast starters and then a really interesting faq on the finer points of yeast starters on Mr Malty:

"Even though many brewers are using starters, most still have questions about the "best way" to make and use them. The answers to these questions are not only based on my experience and lab work, but from conversations with David Logsdon, Founder/Owner of Wyeast Laboratories, Inc., Greg Doss, Wyeast Laboratories Microbiologist, and Neva Parker, White Labs Inc. Laboratory Manager. I would also like to thank Graham Sanders for his extensive feedback on this article."

http://www.mrmalty.com/starter_faq.htm

Helped me learn a lot. However, as with most good lessons, it has now lead to more questions.

According to the article, and the pitching rate calculator on Mr Malty, I should have pitched a little over 200 billion yeast cells into my 20L of 1057 SG ale. In other words, 2x smack packs - or a starter designed to produce a 100% increase in yeast cells.

The FAQ discusses volumes of starter, and I understand that to make 200 billion yeast cells from 100 billion, I would should have made 2L of 1040 SG yeast starter.

Does this sound right to you guys? And if so what kind of vessel do you make a 2L starter in?

Thanks once again for all your help and advice.

PS: Krausen on my underpitched 1057 SG now looks splendid:

View attachment 24455

That fermenting beer sure makes you feel good eh Richy! 2L starter will be fine.

Low Tech, cheap and convenient - sanitised plastic 2.4L Berri Juice bottle, shake to aerate and release lid a little to let off pressure, don't aerate any more once in attenuation phase (look for the Co2 bubbles rising up the inside wall of the container).

High tech and a little expensive - Stir plate, 2L Erlnmyer flask and Oxygen, a burst of oxygen in the wort before starting the stirplate. Much reduced lag time using this method, switch off the stirplate when the attenuation phase begins.

This way you won't risk pitching oxidised starter.

Screwy

 

[goomboogo]

Richy, as Screwtop said, the 2.4 litre juice bottle is a commonly used container. I have some 5, 2.2 and 2 litre glass bottles and use a bung with an airlock. The smaller bottles are old wine bottles and the 5 litre is a demijohn that most homebrew shops will have.

John Palmer wrote an article for BYO (July-August 2008) where he states "pitching a typical liquid yeast package to a 1 litre starter will only result in 1.7x growth, but pitching a 2 litre starter will generate about 2.3x growth and a 4 litre starter will generate about 3x growth." There are factors other than just the amount of wort that will affect the amount of growth but I think you are around the mark in estimating a doubling in size in a 2 litre starter. As others have pointed out the term starter is a general one.

The article also touches on your question about pitching 200 billion cells or the equivalent of 2 smack packs. He mentions the oft quoted pitching rate of 1 million cells per mililitre of wort per degree of Plato. The calculator you mention would be using the aforementioned pitching rate to arrive at the number of 200 billion cells. Palmer's article states " what is often not mentioned is that this recommendation is for re-pitched yeast - such as you would get from the bottom of the fermenter from a previous batch. This yeast is not at peak vitality and viablity depending on age in the fermenter , previous original gravity, etc. Fresh yeast from a well-prepared starter is at peak viability and vitality and only 50-75% as many fresh yeast are needed to do the same job as re-pitched yeast." Hence the claim that a fresh smack pack containing 100 billion cells is enough for a 19-20 litre batch that is 1050's and under.

 

[QldKev]

PS: (and slightly off topic) I always thought that CO2 is an odorless gas, and that the smells of fermentation are the esters and phenols produced by the little yeasties

Got to love the off-topics :lol: :lol:

It depends on the concentrations

http://www.uigi.com/MSDS_gaseous_CO2.html

:icon_drunk:

QldKev

 

[atkinsonr]

Thanks fellas. Will keep my eye out for those juice bottles when next in the supermarket and perhaps grab a small demijohn if I find myself in the HBS one day (imagine that).

Richy